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Threads 1861 to 1890

Budapest play
Posted by BradRod on 03-Aug-2005 11:36:35 (#13675)

In Budapest I noticed something I never noticed here. The pit people share the pool of tips with the dealers. Although I have seen some places where apit person on one shift is a dealer on another one and vice versa. There the switch can occur quickly and frequently. They do not go and change into a suit or a dealer shirt. They are all a lways dreseed in dealer garb. When you offer a tip the pit person is more likely the one to say thank you.

The role of the pit person is generally quite different than here. Since they do not seem to be concerned about card counters at all. Camaflouge play is not really necessary however the pit person is constantly watching table action. They sit on these tall chairs that look like lifeguards overlooking no more than 2 tables a t a time. They carefully watch each play of each hand of each player and every exchange of money. They seem to be highly trained and are as quick to call out a mistake against a player as one that goes against the house.

The dealers do seem to have been told to encourage players to play stupidly - of course both dealer and most players being oblivious to the count. If your hand is 15 or lower they will always urge you to double down with a dealer's 7 or more. They always say split with any pair except for aces when they say double down for some reason. In the house with surrender they will always encourage surrender with any hand up to 17 if the dealer is showing a 7 or better. All this of course while the game is European No Hole Card so that the player stands a good chance of losing their extra bet(s) should the dealer eventually draw to a BJ despite whatever hand the player may have made.

Eye in the sky?
Posted by Sonny on 03-Aug-2005 12:49:14 (#13676)

> Camaflouge play is not really necessary however the pit person is constantly
> watching table action. They sit on these tall chairs that look like
> lifeguards overlooking no more than 2 tables a t a time.

Do they still have cameras everywhere? Is the surveillance similar to what we are used to in the US?

-Sonny-

yes
Posted by BradRod on 03-Aug-2005 14:51:19 (#13679)

although it is my impression that they are used for documentation purposes only. i am not sure but I did not get the impression that they were being used for ongoing random monitoring. They dont make references to "this is for the camera" like you often hear. I never saw or heard during the time that I was there (between 350 - 400 hours of play ) about them checking with the camera to settle a disputed play.

Disputes are settled by the chair person with one supervising pit person over all the chair people. Disputes are often settled somewaht casually and often with a liberal nod to the player. Cannot recall any good examples right now. (May have to go back.) Also they DO back cards up unlike any American casino that I have played in . I do remeber a time when I was allowed to double down after I had already hit for 21. There was one memorable time (supports the notion of the strenght of selective bad memories vs. good ones) however when the chair person made what i thought was quite a wrong decision against me. I was pissed but do not remember the circumstances anymore.

Alot of aspects of the play seem to be quite casual except for two notable exceptions. Drink service is very precise and formal. If you order hot tea is it served on a silver tray with a little silver tea pot. Other drinks with the exact garnish and a coaster mostly with glases and china. the servers very proper and highly regimented. Also the shift changes had a little pomp and circumstance to them . The new shift is marched in led by the shift supervisor.

more about Budapest
Posted by BradRod on 03-Aug-2005 21:46:02 (#13682)

the 3 major casinos in Budapest operate pretty much the same way in this respect. 2 of them have a common ownership the Tropicana and the Las Vegas. Varkert is owned separately.)

An ID is required to be admitted. Forieigners must show their passport. Once they have you in their system (with photo) they give you a card similar to other casino cards but with some exceptions. They are not used for comps.

When you enter the casino your file is brought up in the computer. The information is also available on computers inside the casino they track your play by recognizing your photo. They keep track of your buy in . They also click a counter with each buy in to keep track of how much money is taken in. The tropicana charges an admittance fee - the equivalent of $15 in exchange for which they give you a unique chip that you can bet with but cannot exchange for cash at any time. meaning if you win you can cash in your winnings but not the origianl bet. I guess the idea is to play it until you lose. they stopped charging me the admittance fee after a while as a VIP player.

They all give you food but again without comps. The meals I had there were quite good. The Varkert has a more sit down style restaurant where you can choose off the menu. The other 2 have basically a kind of mini buffet. These are for just the asking or help yourself.They do not give or redeem comp points and there are no gift shops. Varkert will give you cab service anywehere around the city to or from the casino, airport - hotel - other casinos. These too are just for the asking. i once came dressed in short pants which violated their dress code (evening only ). they would not allow in me but did provide me with a cab back to my hotel to change and the cabbie also brought me back.

basic strategy question
Posted by Strider6122 on 04-Aug-2005 05:29:45 (#13684)

Why is that basic strategy states that one should double on a soft 15 or a soft 16 against a dealer's upcard of 4 while it states one should simply hit a soft 13 or a soft 14 against the same dealers upcard, a 4. Essentially what makes a soft 15/16 different that it warrents a double against a 4 while a soft 13/14 does not warrent a double against a 4? Everything else seems to make sense to me on the basic strategy chart but this one doesn't. If one is betting the dealer is going to bust a soft 13 though a soft 16 seem like equal hands to me. My guess would be it has to do with deck composition, but since it is a multiple deck game I would think one 4 removed wouldn't make a significant enough difference. Can anyone enlighten me to the logic behing this or is just one of those math things we have to accept? For reference I am looking at the wizards of odds' chart at http://wizardofodds.com/blackjack/bj4deck.html

The answer: THERE IS NO LOGIC...
Posted by zengrifter on 04-Aug-2005 20:42:52 (#13690)

...per'se, except that of the "staticical logic" provided by computer simulation. By simulating A2 v 4 hit 10 million times and then double 10 million times we see that A2 v 4 HIT fairs better, etc. All BJ BS and count strategy decisions are arrived at in the same manner - multi-million hand simulation. zg

Basic Strategy is a function of expectations.
Posted by Anon on 04-Aug-2005 21:57:29 (#13691)

Take out your copy of Beat the Dealer. Flip to the appendix. Each of the 55 two-card combinations versus the ten possible upcards is listed in a tabular format. Within the tables are the expectations for each of the player alternative actions. The alternative that is the highest for each holding constitutes the Basic Strategy. For each set of rules and conditions, there is only one action for a particular holding that is of mathmatically highest expectation. For each set of rules and conditions, therefore, there is only one correct Basic Strategy.

There is a complication: pair splits. If we define Basic Strategy as the correct play given the cards we have seen, the first hand of a pair is straight forward. The second hand, and any subsequent hands from resplits, are not straightforward. The reason is the proliferation of cards seen in prior hands. By convention arrived at a half-century ago, correct Basic Strategy for a pair spilt is the action on the initial hand.

Here is why
Posted by Easy Money on 06-Aug-2005 22:47:54 (#13713)

Two reasons:
1. Because with 10 million simulation trials, the math tells us to do so.
2. Because with soft 13 or 14 it's better to NOT give up your opportunity to take a second or third hit card in order to get yourself a hand with significant value, ie. 18 - 21. Whereas, with soft 15, 16 & 17 for the most part, you will only need one card and what ever that card is, your gonna have to stand regardless.

Not getting any positive counts
Posted by Cat_in_awe on 04-Aug-2005 08:39:57 (#13685)

I did my first 'real' card counting on a trip to Biloxi last weekend. My observation was that it was extremely hard to get a large positive count to bet into. Is this a common situation, playing deck after deck and never getting a count high enough to make a large bet? Or was I just unlucky?

I was mostly playing 2-deck pitch games, but I also counted a few 6-deck shoes. Pen on the 2-deck was 60-65% and the 6-decks were cutting off 1-1/3 decks.

GPC

The 2D games should produce...
Posted by zengrifter on 04-Aug-2005 20:38:32 (#13689)

... a sufficiently positive count to place maxBets about 20+% of the shuffles... I think. Anyone? zg

what kind of count were you waiting for
Posted by bigplayer on 04-Aug-2005 22:21:30 (#13692)

You should have your max bet out there at +4 HiLo for most of todays games, For a double deck game that's a running count of +6 with 1/2 deck gone or a running count of only +3 going into the final round if the cuts are good.

Niagara Conditions
Posted by zooner on 04-Aug-2005 12:14:35 (#13686)

I'll be heading to Niagara Falls,ON in late September. Where can I find info on blackjack conditions there?

Not Good
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 04-Aug-2005 13:36:22 (#13687)

The following does not pertain to high-limit rooms

Canadian Casinos (Fallsview and Niagara):

The games are 8 decks with around 2 to 2.5 decks cut off. S17, DAS, DOA, No Surrender, $10 mins at best, full tables almost always. At peak times expect at the very least $15 tables. I have seen Casino Niagara go to $25 and $50 mins on the main floor if it is very busy.

You may find a $5 multi-action table on the second floor of Casino Niagara. But you will have an absurdly low hands-per-hour rate as they pay off up to 21 bettors per hand.

There may be 6 deckers in the high limit areas. Probably with $100 mins and 1.5 decks or more cut off. (Not entirely sure of this)

Seneca Niagara:

Same as above, but better penetration. Usually under 2 decks. Pen is Dealer dependent here, so definitely shop around. $5 tables sometimes available in the wee-hours. Always $15 or lower tables available. Also, fewer people. Still, not at all a good game, but better than Canadian Casinos.

The Canadian Exchange rate at the Casinos will cost you 4% converting both ways. So, between the exchange rate and extremely poor games and conditions, I would say it is certainly best to play at Seneca if you insist on playing.

Free drinks at Seneca, Not in Canada

If you play poker too, I would forget all about Blackjack in this market. Seneca has a very good poker room with a reasonable rake and no goofy posting rules or jackpots.

Casino Niagara was the first place I ever played Blackjack. Maybe 6 years ago or so. I play in a tourney there every year. So, even though I don't play there anymore I scout the Canadian places once a year. Nothing has changed in all my visits in all the years. I haven't been there in 6 mos, but I know this info is likely still valid.

Thanks
Posted by zooner on 04-Aug-2005 16:40:01 (#13688)

I'm actually from Canada so woon't worry about the exchange rate but it sounds like the games are not great. I'm doing my best to stick to $5 and $10 tables until I can add more to my bankroll. I'll be sure to check the casinos on both sides of the 49th out but will likely not play. Thanks for the info.

BBBJ
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 05-Aug-2005 01:10:35 (#13693)

Arnold Snyder's "Big Book of Blackjack" should be available soon and I think I'm going to get it, mostly because it has Double Exposure data which seems like a beatable game but the standard software can't simulate it.

We often refer to BJ books by acronyms of their titles so I guess we will call this book "BBBJ". Does anyone know if this acronym already represents something else?

Re:BBBJ
Posted by suicyco maniac on 05-Aug-2005 05:42:10 (#13694)

Snyders Blackbelt in Blackjack has been refered to as BBIBJ for quite a while now so I would imagine to keep things constant Big Book of Blackjack should reduce to BBOBJ but I don't see how one or two people can decide what to nickname a book unless Arnold himself starts it. Over time people will just naturaly gravitate tword some abreviation and we will all use it. That being said the book looks pretty impressive and I will most certainly pick up a copy of BBBJ or what ever the hell we all end up calling it :)

I was thinking along the lines of...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 09-Aug-2005 11:08:03 (#13727)

http://www.encyclopedia-of-sex.com/displayarticle291.html

But that's just me!

There has to be some kind of a prize for the first person to say "I just got BBBJ by Arnold Snyder."

BBBJ from Arnold?
Posted by suicyco maniac on 09-Aug-2005 16:39:26 (#13731)

Man you're sick :)

another sd question for zg
Posted by Myooligan on 05-Aug-2005 16:02:07 (#13697)

zg (or anyone else who pays attention to SD shuffles),

Is the riffle-riffle-strip-riffle-cut shuffle fairly standard in SD games?
One set of strips, usually?

I know I'm studying this matter in depth against the better judgment of both you and The Mayor, but then, you probably have more favorable "Bankroll/Free Time" ratios than I.

Anyway, thankyou.

-Myoo

Pretty much
Posted by Sonny on 05-Aug-2005 18:25:16 (#13705)

< Is the riffle-riffle-strip-riffle-cut shuffle fairly standard in SD games?

It is pretty much the standard SD shuffle, although it is possible to find lazy/inexperienced dealers who will use simpler versions.

-Sonny-

Time is money. Including a cut at the end, this is standard for any game dealt from one deck, including poker. *NM*
Posted by Anon on 06-Aug-2005 00:16:46 (#13707)

MGM, Others Abuse Patrons' Rights
Posted by zengrifter on 05-Aug-2005 17:27:14 (#13699)

MGM, Others Abuse Patrons' Rights

By Marcus K. Dalton
Las Vegas Tribune | August 5, 2005

In a recent open letter to the Review Journal, Las Vegas attorney Robert Nersesian writes -

"Nevada's casino industry continues to act as if it is above the law. Time and again, patrons legally playing ... suffer imprisonment and even beatings at the hands of casino security personnel. It's well past time that something be done to stop these incidents."

Abuse of casino patrons' rights in Southern Nevada is actually more widespread than is commonly acknowledged.

Consider the case of Richard Chen. On March 9, 2000, the Nevada Supreme Court ruled 3-1 that the Monte Carlo Casino had to give Richard Chen the $40,400 he won by counting cards at blackjack. From the objective view of the law, if there is such a thing, card counters are merely players who have enough skill to beat casinos at their own game. A close look at the Chen decision shows how precarious the legal rights of card counters actually are. Chen used a fictitious Burma passport (the country no longer exists) to obtain $44,000 in chips. By the time he had accumulated a total of $84,400, it was discovered that he was a known card counter. So, the Monte Carlo refused to pay. Chen, having won money legitimately nevertheless had to go to the State's highest court to collect.

Think that Chen's case is a remote or isolated occurrence in the Southern Nevada casinos, including those owned by the MGM consortium? Think again.

Last Month a player won $8,600 at blackjack at the MGM Grand but when he attempted to redeem his chips he was denied his winnings and even his initial buy-in. The player, who wishes to remain nameless, holds a Ph.D. from Stanford University and works at an 'ivy league' university on the east coast.

"After playing at the MGM Grand without being rated, and winning a large amount, the cage then refused to cash my chips, and gave me a receipt for them instead, on the grounds that because I was not known to them, having played without a comp rating, they have no record of my play. From what the shift manager said to me when he told me the decision, it is obvious that they know who I am, know I am an excellent blackjack player, and are acting on the premise that strong players are fair game for being cheated and harassed by their casino," said the Stanford Ph.D.

The Tribune spoke with gaming legal experts Al Rogers and Bob Nersesian, and both told us that they know of several other cases in which the MGM Grand did this to exceptionally strong blackjack players. In previous cases, after filing complaints with the Gaming Control Board, the victims eventually got their money, but the MGM Grand was not penalized in any way which obviously gives the MGM Grand no incentive to discontinue this abuse.

Several Las Vegas lawyers say there is an emerging pattern of intimidation and excessive force, with casino security, state gaming officers and the Metropolitan Police Department often working in concert to trample constitutional rights, civil liberties and gaming regulations to deter advantage gamblers from playing at local properties.

The problem has been emerging from the backrooms of casinos into wider public view through a bevy of legal cases in Las Vegas in which advantage gamblers have sued casino-hotels, Gaming Control Board agents, and even Metro officers after they have had their winnings confiscated or been detained and roughed up by security and police officers and even charged with unrelated minor offenses.

One who understands this is Las Vegas attorney Bob Nersesian, who represents several advantage players who charge that their civil rights have been violated in casinos in recent years.

In a November 2004 article entitled "Bringing Down The House, Las Vegas Mercury author Bob Shemeligian quotes Nersesian and reviews some of the attorney's cases against casino abuse: "The casino is at war with everybody - every single player," Nersesian says. "Every day, the casino wins the war against the average casino patron. They do this by winning from the patron. But when it comes to their war against advantage players, I would suggest the casino uses tactics not approved by the Geneva Convention."

And don't think that the smaller "local" establishments are immune to this obnoxious and illegal behavior. Recently the Tribune learned of allegations of several violations involving the Tuscany Hotel Casino on Flamingo Road.

Last month Mary Miller had checked into the Tuscany Hotel and then proceeded to the bar where she played video poker. According to Miller, she began to pile up winnings in the machine, "several hundred dollars, very lucky," she said. "As my winnings accumulated the security guard became increasingly interested and then finally told me I had to leave."

Miller claims she was not drunk or belligerent, but she was incredulous towards the Tuscany security guard, not understanding why she would be asked to leave when winning.

Ultimately, Miller was handcuffed and detained, her winnings were confiscated without a receipt, and then she was packed out and ejected from the property without even a refund of the hotel fare she had paid only two hours earlier. When her attorney requested a copy of the security report and the video surveillance, none was forthcoming.

The Tribune has learned that Miller's Tuscany experience is not uncommon to that property. According to Tribune sources several weeks ago a craps player who was ahead several thousand dollars had an almost identical experience to Miller's. Further Tribune has witnessed the existence, first hand, of illegal table-game sidebets being blatantly promoted at Tuscany.

In a July 22nd Tribune commentary, noted gaming expert L.V. Bear wrote: "What should be frightening and infuriating to Nevadans is that the outrageous activity by casinos is tolerated by the Nevada Gaming Control Board. If there was to be a vote for least effective public agency, the Gaming Control Board would win easily. It appears to be corrupt from top to bottom, operating as a de facto arm of the casino industry, instead of protecting the public from casino wrongdoing. The Gaming Control Board is little more than a training ground for future casino employees. The current Board is a see-no-evil, hear-no-evil trio of two undistinguished career bureaucrats and a casino-industry attorney who cater to every whim of the casino bosses, and do little or nothing to protect the public."

Publicized cases of casino cheating underscore an apparent mentality of the Nevada Gaming Control Board itself. When the Venetian was caught rigging promotional drawings for the benefit of certain Asian high-rollers, Gaming Control fined it a million dollars, which is a petty slap on the wrist for the Venetian. The crooked employees should have been referred to the District Attorney's Office for criminal prosecution. Not only was that not done, the Gaming Control didn't even see fit to revoke the gaming licenses of the perpetrators
.
In a more recent case, the Golden Nugget refused to pay $48,600 on a winning sports bet. The Golden Nugget said it simply would not pay the winner, though it would refund the $2700 bet. The Gaming Control Board ordered the Golden Nugget to pay the victim, but assessed an absurdly small monetary penalty of less than $30,000. Again, no casino employee was prosecuted for trying to cheat a patron, and the fine, actually imposed for failure to notify the Board of a "patron dispute," was so small as to be ridiculous. And, the outright attempt to cheat a patron of his winnings was labeled a "patron dispute."

L.V. Bear lays the blame thoroughly at the feet of Gaming Control, noting the case of a computerized tracking device that the Eldorado Casino was utilizing to illicitly improve their profits (i.e., cheat) at blackjack: "The Board had to be sued before it agreed to take action to stop [the Eldorado's] cheating at blackjack, through a computerized table that uses marked cards. Incredibly, the Board has permitted the continued use of the marked cards, but has made it less easy, though not impossible, for casinos to use the device to cheat patrons. The Board refuses to publicly disclose a copy of the anti-cheating orders it claims to have issued. Without the embarrassment of being sued for refusing to do its job, the Board would likely have continued to do nothing while the cheating went on unabated."

Unfortunately, Gaming Control has the ability to operate largely in secret. A few ill-conceived statutes allow it more secrecy than a regular police department. Most of its files are not considered public records, and are not available for public inspection. Most of its business is conducted via secret deals with casino bosses. Of course, the secret sweetheart-deal making works to the advantage of the Board, its employees and the casino bosses, and to the detriment of the public.

"The present Gaming Control Board is an out-of-control, corrupt government agency operating in virtual secrecy. Legislation is needed to force it to open its files and records to the sunshine of public scrutiny. If after public examination of its practices, it is determined to unsalvageable, it should be disbanded, its employees fired from the public payroll, and a new agency created," says Bear.

"Nevada does not need another cheating scandal or another abuse-of-patrons scandal in its casinos. There have been far too many already, with no meaningful action ever taken against the wrongdoers. Nevada is competing with many other gaming and vacation destinations. The other states take casino cheating and other wrongdoing seriously. Nevada needs to start doing the same, before it is too late. Once we get a national or worldwide reputation for not having legitimate, effective government oversight of casinos, many of the tourists -- the lifeblood of our economy -- will stop taking the risk of visiting Nevada," concludes Bear.

Deja Vu for me
Posted by BradRod on 05-Aug-2005 17:42:47 (#13701)

I had a similar experience happen to me at an MGM Grand recently cashing in $1000 chips they would not cash me out unless they saw my id. Then they verified my play with the pit person and I think they knew that I was an advantage player also. It seemed like they wanted to take a few other steps that may have resulted in me getting a kind of voucher but the cashier was new and I think by some mis-steps she made she frustrated the cashier manager and he seemed to be a little agitated about just having to give me the money.

I think that the next time I will squirrel away chips during play if I can so that I do not get stuck trying to cash out such large chips,.

Best Rules: Mandalay, Caesars, or Palms?
Posted by Canadian Plopper on 05-Aug-2005 18:13:21 (#13703)

I will be visiting the fine city of Las Vegas after a one year absence. I am not an "advantage" player, but I do like to play at tables that have the smallest house edge. I know that the above three once had (and may stil) two deck games with surrender. Can anyone please tell me which of the three currently have the "best" 2-deck rules. Thanks.

A different perspective
Posted by VC on 06-Aug-2005 00:29:23 (#13708)

Dear Mr. Zen:

Thank you for all your posts, I feel I have learned alot from you through the years. For years I was a basic strategy player (I guess ploppy in the eyes of some) and in the last few years I have slowly mastered the art of counting cards using KO. I consider you and the Mayor as a key part in my transition to becoming an advantage player, though I have much work still to do. I would like to offer my perspective on the latest legal happenings where various casinos and Griffin are taking quite a beating.

The casinos response to legal judgements and bad press will be to go on the defensive. Shareholders of these large corporations (HET, etc.) will not tolerate casino goon squads causing huge jury verdicts and settlements. The casino reaction, in my opinion, will be to reduce blackjack to unplayable for the advantage player. If the fear of the bottom line is so great because of card counting then casinos will simply go into a siege warfare mentality. Decks will be shuffled at 50% or higher, all tables will go 6/5, and CSM's will be used as needed.

Maybe I am missing something, but these monster corporations like Harrah's and MGM will not allow themselves to be taken advantage of. If they can no longer be proactive with advantage players (backrooming, trespass laws, intimidation, etc.) then I believe they default to making BJ unplayable except for the ploppy and basic strategy player.

Maybe we are in midst of a civil rights movement for cardcounters but I see the end result of all of this litigation as being negative in the long run as casinos simply dig in and develop every possible counter measure to keep advantage players from even being able to sit down at the table.

Thanks.

Bad games
Posted by Counter-Intelligence on 07-Aug-2005 06:09:48 (#13715)

That is already happening to a certain extent which is why there are so many games with bad rules being dealt. Most average players don't know good games from bad games. What they (the players) will realize, later rater than sooner, is that they are losing at at alarmingly higher rate at the 21 tables than they were in the past. They will then stop playing and move to the poker rooms. This will eventually result in a lower drop at the BJ tables and the casinos will realize that something is causing their spreadsheet #s at the BJ tables to 'skew'. The unknowledgable casino managers will then attempt to increase drop by instituting poorer rules and ridiculous promotions, while the smart ones will return the games to a playable status. They will increase their drop by offering fair games that will collect the .5-1% from all players they should. Many casinos in LV have come to this realization. Some have done the opposite (Palms for ex.).
It is satisfying to walk into a casino and see the 6:5 tables empty. Casinos will soon realize that empty tables generate negative revenue. Better to offer good games and manage your tables full for a large percentage of the time.

Game Quality and Market Segment
Posted by BlackJackHack on 07-Aug-2005 17:21:55 (#13716)

There are two ways to protect a game: (1) hire PCs with brains who can tell an AP from a civilian and take reasonable countermeasures, or (2) make the rules/penetration so crappy that APs can't make any money at the game. There is a cost to both - hiring PCs with brains costs more than hiring the usual morons. The cost to offering crappy rules is that it will turn away some percentage of the clientele. The cost to offering poor penetration is fewer hands per hour, as well as turning away some percentage of the clientele (who are bored by the constant shuffling).

It is my observation that the casinos have taken a bifurcated approach to this problem, based on market segment.

In the bottom end of the market (i.e. red chip play), my perception is that the major casino companies believe it is more cost effective to offer crappy games than to hire personnel smart enough to police the games. They're probably right - red chip ploppies (more so than green/black players) probably don't have a clue what the difference is between 6 decks and 8 decks, H17 and S17, or between 3:2 and 6:5. Offering crappy games probably does not cost the casinos that many customers.

In the high end of the market (i.e., black chippers), the approach is very different. Offering crappy penetration will cost them big $ with big players. Offering crappy rules, more importantly, will send their customers over to other casinos. Big players do understand the difference between S17 and H17, and would be insulted having to play an 8 decker. You will NOT find any CSM's, H17 8 deckers, or 6:5 BJ, IN ANY HIGH LIMIT PIT ANYWHERE.

In the middle of the market (green chip), it really can go either way depending on the store.

IMHO, AP's need to tailor their strategies to fit the casino's method of defense. Quality games are to be respected, not butchered -- if you are playing one of the few remaining quality games, nurse the game gently - limit your sessions, use a moderate spread and play with some cover. If you find a game with really crappy rules and horrible penetration, don't run away -- instead, attack it mercilessly. Try spreading from 1:50, wonging in/out, using full indices. You might find out that the game is totally unprotected and very beatable if played the right way. While I won't name stores, I have come across H17 8D games that are very beatable because there is nobody in the casino with anything resembling a brain.

Smallest House Edge
Posted by Canadian Plopper on 05-Aug-2005 18:16:57 (#13704)

I apologize if I already posted this question, but can someone who visited Vegas recently please tell me which of these three options have the lowest House-edge 2-deck BJ game: Caesars, Mandalay, or Palms. Thank you.

What are the rules for each...
Posted by zengrifter on 05-Aug-2005 19:37:10 (#13706)

... including dealer hit/stand soft 17? zg

If you know the answers to the above you can figure it out yourself with this chart - http://www.bjmath.com/bjmath/conseq/rules.htm

Just returned from Vegas
Posted by Victoria on 06-Aug-2005 14:14:16 (#13710)

Here is what I saw:

Mandalay Bay: Usual 6D game with s-17,lsr, rsa, da, das. Pen about 1.5 cut

a few DD tables with $100 min but 50% pen, so did not play.

Caesars: Same 6D as Mandalay Bay

I did not see any DD but they are supposed to have a table or two.

Palms: Same 6D in high limit area (saw $100 min and mixed pen)otherwise you are looking

at h-17

There is a DD game in that area that is S-17, only 50% pen and $200

min.

Victoria

Palms 6-deck has been converted to 8-deck except in HL room *NM*
Posted by LV Bear584 on 06-Aug-2005 17:58:50 (#13712)

Been thgat way since July 4
Posted by Counter-Intelligence on 07-Aug-2005 05:51:00 (#13714)

I played the 6 decker on July-1, then went back July 5 to find the 6 deckers gone by the front door and replaced wiht 8 deckers! H-17 no less. Too bad too I always liked playing there.

About the Caeasars, Palms, and Mandalay Games
Posted by Canadian Plopper on 08-Aug-2005 09:59:58 (#13717)

When last I was there some time ago, Caesars had a two-deck game with surrender and stay on soft17 in the high-limit area (unfortunately it was always crowded and had irritating pit personal), Mandalay had the same thing except they hit soft17, and Palms stayed on soft17 but did not have surrender.
If those rules still exist, I would play at Caesars but a friend of mine who is a fair-size gambler got squeezed out of there almost a year ago for the perception of card counting (he is not, he just varies his bets greatly). He came into the back room with a big stack of cash, played by the book, and then just started making bets 10 times his $200 minimum (not for counting reasons, but as he told me because he hadn't seen an Ace yet). He was winning and they started making him feel uncomfortable and did not take his "just passing through" line when they asked for a players card or ID. I would hate to be "accused" of being a card counter when I wasn't benefitting from that exercise. The Palms rules are not as good (or weren't) but they are the most liberal in giving comps IMHO.
I did subscribe to a service that gave the various blackjack rules for all the casinos, but, respectfully, it was found laking on my last trip and contained errors so I am trying this board instead. Good luck all.

In this order, notwithstanding penetration...
Posted by zengrifter on 08-Aug-2005 13:03:01 (#13719)

... and counting considerations - 1. Caesars, 2. Mandalay, 3. Palms. Factoring in Mandalay at 65% pene and counting, Mandalay takes the #1 spot. zg

I think 2D at Ceasars has been gone ....
Posted by Orca on 09-Aug-2005 13:28:32 (#13728)

.....for quite some time. They would only deal it by special request.

That's a fact.
Posted by dogman on 09-Aug-2005 22:56:55 (#13741)

$500 min. and the rules suck.

mgm used to have s17 single deck..ahh the good old days. *NM*
Posted by eyesfor21 on 10-Aug-2005 10:14:12 (#13746)

good old mirage
Posted by eyesfor21 on 10-Aug-2005 00:00:21 (#13742)

not the best for rules.

but no heat,.

Are you sure about Caesars?
Posted by Canadian Plopper on 10-Aug-2005 19:47:34 (#13758)

When I was last there (which, admittedly was many months ago) they had a two deck game, with surrender and stand on soft 17 in the bank hi-limit section with a $100 or $200 minimum and a 5,000 or 10,000 maximum. Do they still have that game?

Absolutely positive abt 2D at C*! *NM*
Posted by Orca on 12-Aug-2005 00:13:13 (#13783)

The demise of Caesars; your thoughts
Posted by Canadian Plopper on 13-Aug-2005 09:54:11 (#13801)

Wow, I believe you. I just checked their website today and was going to strike them off my list because it said they would only allow doubling on two deck games if you had 11 or 10. Now without a 2 deck option, I see no reason to visit them. Another example of short-term thinking in vegas (I used to visit downtown Vegas and Binions (before the takeover) because of the great one deck game with the lowest house edge. Now that it is gone, it is not worth the cab ride off the strip)). My 2 choices for staying are now the Palms and Mandalay. I assume they both have 2 deck with Mandalay also having Surrender. Does Wynn's now have the lowest house edge 2 deck game on the strip?

one month ago
Posted by stainless steel rat on 13-Aug-2005 15:45:37 (#13803)

Binion's had a RO6 SD game paying 3:2... It was worth playing. The Plaza also had a good DD game as well, with pen at 65-75% and if you are lucky, even 80% plus...

Theoretically, 2D, S17 is the same at ....
Posted by Orca on 13-Aug-2005 16:03:35 (#13804)

...W* as it would be at Be* or anywhere else. As others in this thread have alluded to, when selecting a BJ game to play, there are many factors to look at other than the house theoretical edge. I would still rent a car to get to other off-strip places such as downtown.

Can't believe I almost lost my bankroll tonight
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 06-Aug-2005 01:24:58 (#13709)

And not at the casino either. Left it in my pocket, forgot to put it away, and I did my laundry tonight. At a laundromat. An unattended, 24 hour one. When I came back to pick up my clothes, there were $100 bills floating all over the dryer. But it was all there. I'll never complain about my bad luck again, this was so lucky that it makes up for it all.

You are lucky that you didn't get busted...
Posted by zengrifter on 06-Aug-2005 16:03:17 (#13711)

... for MONEY LAUNDERING! zg

Ha Ha Ha
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 08-Aug-2005 10:28:11 (#13718)

good one zg.

Am I reading the indexes right?
Posted by Cat_in_awe on 08-Aug-2005 15:21:02 (#13720)

I looked up the 'index' plays on this page: http://cardcounter.com/indices/-11111100-1.htm .

I'm assuming this is the simple High-Low counting system, (the numbers listed go from A - Face).

Tell me if I'm reading this table right, (I'm looking at the 6D column and have rearranged the plays in order of the count.) I'm supposed to make the indicated play instead of the Basic Strategy play at the counts listed, correct? Also if the count is higher or lower than the count listed, I would include that play as well, (i.e. count is +2 I still double on 9 vs. 2).

Hopefully this isn't a stupid question, but I want to get it right.

<tt>True� Count� � � � � Hand� � � � � � Play
-2� � � � � � � � � � � 13� vs.� 3� � � � Hit
-1� � � � � � � � � � � 12� vs.� 6� � � � Hit
-1� � � � � � � � � � � 12� vs.� 5� � � � Hit
� 0� � � � � � � � � � � 12� vs.� 4� � � � Hit
� 0� � � � � � � � � � � 13� vs.� 2� � � � Hit
� 1� � � � � � � � � � � 9� vs.� 2� � � � � Double
� 1� � � � � � � � � � � 16� vs.� T� � � � Stand
� 2� � � � � � � � � � � 11� vs.� A� � � � Double
� 2� � � � � � � � � � � 12� vs.� 3� � � � Stand
� 3� � � � � � � � � � � Insurance� � � Take
� 4� � � � � � � � � � � 9� vs.� 7� � � � � Double
� 4� � � � � � � � � � � 10� vs.� A� � � � Double
� 4� � � � � � � � � � � 10� vs.� T� � � � Double
� 4� � � � � � � � � � � 12� vs.� 2� � � � Stand
� 5� � � � � � � � � � � 15� vs.� T� � � � Stand
� 5� � � � � � � � � � � 16� vs.� 9� � � � Stand
� 5� � � � � � � � � � � TT� vs.� 5� � � � Split
� 5� � � � � � � � � � � TT� vs.� 6� � � � Split
</tt>

Yes, correct.
Posted by zengrifter on 08-Aug-2005 19:05:57 (#13721)

If you plan to play 1D, 2D, and 6-8D, then just leard the 2D#s. If you plan to mostly play 6-8D, those #s will suffice for infrequent 1-2D games. zg

Zero count indexes ?
Posted by Cat_in_awe on 09-Aug-2005 07:17:26 (#13726)

How do the zero count indexes numbers work? I see 2 plays, 12 vs. 4 and 13 vs. 2 listed at a count of zero. It would seem to me that if the count is zero (like at the beginning of the shoe), I'd just make the Basic Strategy play. When do I make the BS play and when do I make the index play on these two ?

GPC

Composition dependent basic strategy
Posted by Sonny on 10-Aug-2005 10:02:51 (#13744)

> I see 2 plays, 12 vs. 4 and 13 vs. 2 listed at a count of zero. It would seem
> to me that if the count is zero (like at the beginning of the shoe), I'd just
> make the Basic Strategy play. When do I make the BS play and when do I make
> the index play on these two ?

You have to factor in the cards that you are holding. With a 10,2 vs. 4 the Hi-Low RC is +1. With a 6,2,4 vs. 4 the count is +4. Any combination of cards that total 12 vs. 4 will give you a positive count. Basic strategy assumes that the count is positive because of the cards that you are holding so it tells you to stand on 12 vs. 4. Only when the RC is negative from previous rounds is it correct to hit these hands.

-Sonny-

index numbers *LINK*
Posted by Myooligan on 09-Aug-2005 04:14:21 (#13725)

Cat,

There are two excellent posts/articles over at bjmath.com about this topic. They're geared toward beginners, written by a very talented teacher, and I highly recommend taking a look. Just follow the link to bjmath.com, then hit the Table of Contents button at the left, then go to Playing Strategies > Indices.

The articles are:
"Index generation and usage methods"
by Richard Reid
and
"Hit on the Left" method for using indices. (For Hard Hit/Stand and Hard Doubling Index numbers)
by Richard Reid. [Modified 98/12/12]

best of luck to you,
Myoo

About Niagara Falls
Posted by BradRod on 08-Aug-2005 19:12:45 (#13723)

I was just there this weekend.

This is in response to Felix's earlier post. See below.

I found the games were pretty much as you described them although I thought the penetration at Casino Niagara was somewhat better then you described. Looked like about 1.5 decks and also seemed to vary a bit with the dealer. I found $10 and $15 tables during the weekend daytimes.

I did not get to the 2nd floor of Niagara to update or confirm about the multi - action tables I did pass through there working my way down the escalators though and I noticed that the area where the BJ tables used to be is now a poker room> There seemed to be some other active remodeling under way so I am not even sure if there were any BJ tables there at all.

The problem with the games in the main playing rooms is that most of the tables in both Fallsview (F) and Niagara (N) are CSMs. There are only limited #'s of shoe tables. I think there were 2 in N and 4 in F.

I played the high stakes rooms in both Canadian casinos on a Sunday afternoon. I found $100 min at F and $50 at N. F had decent penetration and N had penetration that was about equal to the 8 deck pen. I did not stay long in the N high stakes area besides the poor pen it seems like a very clannish and chatty place with pit people hanging all over the table. I felt I was standing out too much.

When I play Niagara Falls I always drive to the American side and park (for free) in the Seneca garage and then walk acroos the bridge to the Canadian side. I ususall do this when i am ready for a break from playing. The walk does me good. Clears my head and lessens the severity of BJ syndrome that I get when I am playing too intensely for too long. The view of the Falls walking across the bridge is about the best one you can see from anywhere.

Playing at Seneca I found $10 and $15 tables. I alternated between those and the $25 tables that are always open. One thing I appreciate is the BJ tables in a separate no smoking room as aopposed to the no smoking sign you have to beg most places to put on the table you are playing at surrounded by smoke from all the other tables and also smoking spectators.

I agree that the Seneca games are better than the Canadian games except maybe the the Fallsbview high stakes game. Stiil I like to cross the bridge for the reasons mentioned above + I like the option of not having to play in the same place continuously and I like the Canadian ambiance. In spite of the excahnge rate my Canadian results were good. Up about 28 average (exchange rate adjusted) units in 3 hours. For the whole trip - up about 140 units in 21 hours. I made up over half of my recent losing session.

Thanks...
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 08-Aug-2005 23:11:48 (#13724)

for the info, especially the high-limit conditions. I used to like when the high-limit "room" at (N) was that little fenced-off area on the main floor. I would stand there, looking awkwardly casual, and back count one of the two closest tables until I got bored, which usually happened pretty quickly.

There were always CSM's at both Canadian places. But it sounds worse than it's ever been. If the pen is 1.5 at (N) I guess that is an improvement. The second floor there was actually all non-smoking. It would suck if there were no non-smoking tables. I honestly think those Canadian cigarettes smell worse!(lol).

This is how I have been doing it:

Park in (Sen)'s free garage, hoof it over the bridge into Canada with the backpack and get a cheap mom-and-pop hotel room, then walk back to (Sen) to play poker. Then walk back to Canada to sleep. It's quite a bit of walking. But, I agree with you about the view. It's very cool. It is easier to get through immigration on foot anyway.

-Felix

Lost my Bankroll at Foxwoods
Posted by Jay Lee on 09-Aug-2005 16:20:25 (#13730)

They just started a new shuffle there and I lost 20k+ in a few hours at the 25th floor. The dealer kept pulling 20 and 21 when he should have busted. Do you think it was because of clumping, stacking the deck, or do you think I got short shoed?

What is the 25th floor at Foxwoods ? *NM*
Posted by BradRod on 09-Aug-2005 17:19:48 (#13732)

25the floor
Posted by Jay Lee on 09-Aug-2005 17:23:16 (#13734)

The highest limit area in the casino.

Foxwoods
Posted by Jay Lee on 09-Aug-2005 17:21:23 (#13733)

I saw a lot of small card come out and the dealer kept getting blackjack and the same patterns kept repeating which makes me think that the shuffle kept the cards the same that were stacked, clumped or short shoed. That night I was about even downstairs in Club Newport and was up a couple grand playing Bac. After I played bj for a while and was about even or up a little I went back to the Baccarat table and started betiing a thousand a hand. I asked the dealer about flat betting and she said if you are winning you should press so since I won like 10 in a row I started to bet 2 then 3k a hand. Finally I am up to 23k and pay my commission. I asked for a room and they said that they would try to get one for me even though my account was locked. I waited for about an hour just to hear Bufongu. The host said I could pay for a room but didn't even have the courtesty to get one reserved for me. Anyway Icash 10k twice on 2 sides of the casino and I go back to gamble a little more and the security guard asked me for id. Iam 27 and was up for 2 days with no sleep so I didn't feel like walking to my car. Anyway after tellingf her 3 times I needed a security guard she finally understood. I waited a few minutes and the guy finally came. It took me like a half hour to find my car and on my way back he tells me to get a room and put the money in a safe so that I don't lose it all. I go back to the security guard and she asks the security guard if he saw my id which was messed up because I told her before to ask inside because they know me and she said that she couldn't have someone vouch for me. I go back and play some roulette with no luck, I lost a few hundred. Then I played a little Bac and was about even maybe down a little. I go to the evevator to get my room and I see the button for the 25th floor. I never went there so I figured why not give it a try. At the only hundred dollar table I was down a lot then about even. I get up and go to the 200 dollar table knowing that something bad is going to happen but anyway the dealer kept puylling 20 and 21 and a lot of small cards came out but the dealer kept winning like I described before. Finally I am down to my last 6k and lose it in a few minutes. I feel violated because of the poor service at Foxwoods. I will go back there and win like 50k and never go back. F them.

Setting the record straight
Posted by Sonny on 10-Aug-2005 09:52:59 (#13743)

Let me start off by saying this: You were gambling and you lost. That is no reason to think that you were cheated. If you were not playing with any advantage (which your post seems to indicate) you should expect to lose. If you can't handle that, don't take it out on the casino.

> I saw a lot of small card come out and the dealer kept getting blackjack and
> the same patterns kept repeating which makes me think that the shuffle kept
> the cards the same that were stacked, clumped or short shoed.

With 312 cards in the shoe you are going to see things like this all the time. They may look like repeated patterns, but that is just your selective memory. Some of the best card sequencers can't tell one 8 of spades from the other five in the shoe. I can assure you that Foxwoods did not short the deck or knowingly stack the cards. But you don't have to take my word for it. Learn to shuffle track and see for yourself where those cards are going during the shuffle. That way you can make sure the good cards get cut to the top.

> That night I was about even downstairs in Club Newport and was up a couple
> grand playing Bac. After I played bj for a while and was about even or up a
> little I went back to the Baccarat table and started betiing a thousand a
> hand...I go back and play some roulette with no luck, I lost a few hundred.
> Then I played a little Bac and was about even maybe down a little.

It sounds like you are no stranger to losing large amounts of money. Why are you so paranoid all of a sudden? Ignore your superstitions.

> I feel violated because of the poor service at Foxwoods.

That's really a matter for the Foxwoods public relations department, not a card counting website.

> I will go back there and win like 50k and never go back.

I wish you the best of luck.

-Sonny-

why not fly to vegas and play
Posted by eyesfor21 on 10-Aug-2005 10:12:51 (#13745)

a decent game or somewhere else where
8 unbeatable deckers are not the norm
The smart player always plays the lower minimum tables,
why be forced to bet large at high minimum tables.
Play 2deck with s17 double after split and 5 minimums with side
bets allowed plus 1000 max bets allowed with is more than
your br allows. Flying to Vegas or somewhere decent and
playing this game would probably have given you
a nice edge not a disadvantage.

And get it all comped! *NM*
Posted by Sonny on 10-Aug-2005 10:21:10 (#13748)

Got some of it back at Taj and Borgata
Posted by Jay Lee on 17-Aug-2005 14:58:44 (#13833)

And lost like 3300 and foxwoods last night. I have 4500 left.

Rough ride
Posted by Sonny on 18-Aug-2005 09:26:48 (#13841)

> And lost like 3300 and foxwoods last night. I have 4500 left.

Those shoe games can be tough to beat. You spend all night waiting for a high count then lose every hand. Then you're stuck in a negative count for another hour or so wondering "Why am I doing this?" I certainly don't envy you folks!

So you're down to $4500? That's pretty rough. You could barely get away with a $5-$60 spread with that much. I hope you've got your backcounting shoes on!

"What doesn't bankrupt you only makes you stronger...and angrier!"

-Sonny-

I won the money playing bac
Posted by Jay Lee on 18-Aug-2005 15:55:52 (#13845)

And was planning to go to Vegas to play a better game with like 10k. How does a dd game with decent rules and about 60-65 pen compare to a game with 6 decks and 1.5 cut off with good rules + surrender.

I'm sorry to hear that *LINK*
Posted by Sonny on 19-Aug-2005 09:39:21 (#13851)

I'm glad that you won, but I'm sorry to hear that you were playing baccarat. Reading some of Thorpe's work on the game should give you a better understanding of what you are up against. In fact, both Griffin and May also published information on beating the game (or, trying to at least) as well.

> And was planning to go to Vegas to play a better game with like 10k. How does
> a dd game with decent rules and about 60-65 pen compare to a game with 6
> decks and 1.5 cut off with good rules + surrender.

This is an excellent question. Unfortunately, it is one that you should already know if you are heading to Vegas with $10k. You have a LONG way to go before you are ready to hit the tables. However, since you seem to be a gambler at heart I will assume that you will ignore my warnings and jump straight to the information.

In any case, here are come preliminary results. They all assume a Hi-Low player (Ill18 & Fab 4) with a $10k bankroll and an optimal bet spread. They were generated by Norm's CVCX online, which I highly recommend you check out (http://www.qfit.com/cvcxonlineviewer.htm).

6D H17 DAS LS 75% 1:12 spread:
EV=0.845%
Win Rate=$14.98/Hour
SD/Hr=46.469
ROR=5.9%
N0=47195
DI=4.6

If you can Wong In/Out at +1 you can do much better:

EV=1.985%
Win Rate=$32.34/Hour
SD/Hr=20.92
ROR=4.7%
N0=20256
DI=7.03

DD H17 DAS 50% 1:8 spread:
EV=0.754%
Win Rate=$13.28/Hour
SD/Hr=36.78
ROR=4.6%
N0=49158
DI=4.51

As you can see, the DD with bad penetration scores the worst. In general, the most important factor is the level of penetration. You will also notice that the hourly variance in the play-all game is enormous and the long run will be more than twice as far away when compared to the backcounting strategy. That means you will risking more, earning less, and playing much longer that you need to be.

Of course, vast improvements could be made on all of these strategies, but I will leave it up to you to develop you own personal style of play.

-Sonny-

Thanks
Posted by Jay Lee on 22-Aug-2005 16:53:33 (#13871)

No more bac, if I need to build my bankroll I'll wong. Check out 1 deck das with 60 pen.
Average
Bet Results
' Std Dev Risk of
Ruin Performance
%W/L Win Rate $/Hr. Hand Hour DI c-SCORE CE CE/WR N0
2.436 2.207% 5.377 $172.06 4.087 40.870 13.3% 13.16 173.07 $86.53 0.50 5777

Count
Freq.
EV Standard
Deviation Optimal Bets
Count Win/Loss Std. Error Exact Chips
<=-1 34.61% -1.79% 0.00 1.152 1.00 32
0 34.84% 0.19% 0.00 1.139 1.00 32
1 6.41% 0.97% 0.01 1.140 2.32 74
2 8.25% 1.68% 0.01 1.143 4.00 128
3
4 6.18% 2.51% 0.01 1.144 5.96 191
5 2.06% 3.22% 0.01 1.144 7.65 245
6 3.23% 3.84% 0.01 1.143 9.14 292
7
8 2.03% 4.86% 0.01 1.138 10.00 320
9 .22% 6.05% 0.04 1.130 10.00 320
10 1.05% 6.07% 0.02 1.130 10.00 320
11
>=12 1.13% 8.05% 0.02 1.116

Dude that is a $200 game!
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 09-Aug-2005 17:36:42 (#13736)

Down 100 units in a few hours is nothing for a 6D game. Well within normal variance. Sorry to hear about this. Not to kick you when your down or anything, but if your BR is only $20K you shouldn't be anywhere near the Stargazer room. The regular VIP room on the first floor is only $50. Still, with a BR like that you're going to get your best value Wonging the 8D shoes on the main floor. I feel comfortable Wonging those games with $2K in my pocket.

The shuffle has been modified to a straight stepladder/riffle-and-restack, with a riffle check at the end. The riffle check is very useful for identifying dealers for <self-censored>. Unfortunately some dealers to the stepladder riffles sloppily and only the R&R riffles neatly because they are the only ones checked. The shuffle is slightly more trackable than it was, but still not appropriate for all-out shuffle tracking. A two-point slug track is somewhat useful and I'll be posting the cut points for the Foxwoods slug shortly.

Good luck, and watch out for the big drunken monkey Wonging around the main floor!

Best BJ in America
Posted by Jay Lee on 09-Aug-2005 17:34:31 (#13735)

I decided trhat I won't play bj in AC, or CT anymore. Who has the best game in America for a hi-lo counter? Beau Rivage?

That depends
Posted by Sonny on 10-Aug-2005 10:19:51 (#13747)

> I decided trhat I won't play bj in AC, or CT anymore. Who has the best game
> in America for a hi-lo counter? Beau Rivage?

It all depends on what your playing style is.

Are you going to be backcounting? Then you will be looking for a fairly crowded casino. If not, you will be looking for a fairly empty casino.

Are you going to be playing for high stakes? Then many Las Vegas strip casinos can accept large action (since you don't like AC or CT). If not, you have your pick of many places through the country.

Do you use a large bet spread? Then you will want someplace where you can play many short hit-and-run sessions. Either a very large casino with many pits or a place with several casinos nearby would work.

Do you use supplemental methods (sequencing, shuffle tracking, front loading, etc.)? In that case you will have to do a lot of scouting of your own to find places that accommodate your style.

Are you looking for any particular side bets? Certain side bets and game variations (Multi-Action, BJ Switch, etc.) are available only in specific areas of the country.

How many decks do you prefer? Are there any particular rules you expect (DAS, LS)? Do you mind ASMs or do you need a hand-shuffled game? How many hours do you want to play each day? Are you playing alone or with teammates? Do you like to play any other games?

There are hundreds of questions you need to ask yourself before you make a decision like this. Your first step should be to subscribe to Wong's Current Blackjack News and get updated listing of casino conditions all around the world. That will help you devise a game plan.

-Sonny-

hard to pinpoint
Posted by eyesfor21 on 10-Aug-2005 15:06:36 (#13751)

Depends on your style of play. Some do not like
sd because when its good you only get a hand or two
and then shuffle and bet spreads are not tolerated.
We all have are likes and dislikes and the casinos seem
to change the games and rules quite often so its hard to pin
point the best. Most go for top rules, some top players like
no heat and play at places with lousier rules but more than
make up for this with no cover and huge spreads.

But overall my view.
USA'S best-
Boomtown-louisiana
sd.db any two,das,s17,10 min,1000 max.and no its not a fake
blackjack-6/5 its the real deal.

a few others scattered around the country are also decent.

plaza Vegas good dbl deck good side bet fun
stardust Vegas good overall
wynn-Vegas---I hear

S.CA is good but lousy pen and high mins.

-and a few other secret spots that will not be revealed.

Best bj in America
Posted by Jay Lee on 10-Aug-2005 17:15:56 (#13752)

Cool, thanks. I heard Beau Rivage was good too.

best bj in america
Posted by Jay Lee on 10-Aug-2005 17:17:38 (#13753)

Thanks.

Biloxi conditions
Posted by Cat_in_awe on 10-Aug-2005 10:41:37 (#13749)

I have no idea about the 'best blackjack in the US', but Beau Rivage in Biloxi has an excellent 6-deck shoe game. S17, DOA, DAS, RSA, LS, and from what I see, between 1.3 to 1.5 penetration (slot in the shoe determines it, I think it looks less than 1.5). They have 2-deck games in the high-limit salon that I didn't watch.

Even at busy times, you can find $10 games, and there generally $5 tables as well. Beware, there are two pits, one in the front and one all the way in the back that have H17 instead of S17. Find the pit in the middle and you'll get the S17 game.

Also, in Biloxi, there are good 2-deck games at Treasure Bay, President and the Palace. All S17, DOA, DAS, NS, RSA at Treasure Bay. 50% pen at Palace and they use automatic shufflers, (not CSM or fake 2-deck), but 60% at TB and President.

Good luck.

GPC

biloxi
Posted by Jay Lee on 11-Aug-2005 16:09:12 (#13772)

I heard they have $25 mid shoe dd w/ 70% pen.

preferential shuffle at Biloxi DD
Posted by Anon on 12-Aug-2005 10:24:45 (#13785)

Listen for the phrase "Let's get rid of this bad shoe." You won't hear it when everyone has pushed with pat twenties.

ouch
Posted by Jay Lee on 12-Aug-2005 15:56:22 (#13792)

I guess there is no reason for me to go to Mississippi. How is 60% pen for dd compared to 75-80 for 6?

Blending with the suckers.
Posted by Anon on 13-Aug-2005 07:42:04 (#13800)

Mathematically I will not be definitive. This is where the simulation software now commonly available can guide you, But I can say that if your dealer is a guy named [deleted] from [deleted], an Air Force veteran, 6'2", thin, with light brown hair and wire-rimmed glasses, you can expect the "bad shoe" comment and an early shuffle every time a flock of small cards lays upon the table. Your theoretical advantage is eviscerated if a third of the good rounds are shuffled away. And FWIW, I've never seen [deleted] deal a shoe game. This must be because his large left hand so easily wraps around a double-sized pack of cards.

Or you can go with the flow and sit at the shoe game with the hunch players and lay down the lash without raising a management eyebrow.

Fresh Shrimp
Posted by Jay Lee on 12-Aug-2005 15:58:00 (#13793)

I heard you can get fresh shrimp though.

Wonging at Borgata?
Posted by Jay Lee on 09-Aug-2005 18:30:33 (#13738)

How does that compare to Foxwoods 8 decks? Borgata is all 6 decks and the pen is supposed to be decent.

About equal
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 10-Aug-2005 11:22:01 (#13750)

The late surrender rule is equivalent to 0.5 decks pen, and no the pen at Borgata is not 0.5 decks better than Foxwoods. Although Foxwoods pen is on the average better than Mohegan, at Mohegan usually you can find at the 6D tables a dealer cutting down to a deck or so. (Hint: avoid Asian female dealers, think American.) When you do, start camping, because you're at the best shoe game in the continental US.

Being I live in CT there is no benefit for me to go to AC, unless I'm planning to do some advanced AP. In fact there is no reason for me to go anywhere else to play shoe. If I'm going to travel, it's going to be for SD or DD.

about equal
Posted by Jay Lee on 10-Aug-2005 17:21:37 (#13754)

What are you doing Sat. morning? I am going to be at Foxwoods if you have time maybe we can team up. I have a dealer there that will draw and tell me the card. The last time I saw him he was dealing Spanish 21 so I don't know if he'll be dealing bj. And I have a floor supervisor that will count for me. Shhh.

I don't know, let's see what ZG thinks
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 11-Aug-2005 01:06:50 (#13759)

Hey Zen Grifter do you think I should do this? How about you Sonny do you have an opinion?

It's up to you, man.
Posted by Sonny on 11-Aug-2005 10:04:05 (#13763)

> How about you Sonny do you have an opinion?

Have you ever known me not to? =)

Sure, why not? Normally I am very hesitant to meet with unknown "newbies" in a casino, but I think Jay has a lot of questions and would really appreciate some guidance. You could always set up a meeting at the Carnegie Deli. I would prefer to meet new people in neutral locations (without the eye-in-the-sky photographing us), but that's up to you. After all, you have no idea who this guy (gal?) is. Maybe he is a casino employee, or a con man who knows that you have several $k in your pocket. Maybe he is a really nice guy who can be your BP. Who knows?

Talking with you would be the equivalent of reading numerous books and having years of table experience condensed into an hour. That would be one heck of a jump-start for his blackjack career…or it may be enough to scare him away from our beloved sport. Either way it would save him months of research and money.

After talking with him for a while you will have a pretty good idea of what his expectations of card counting are. And, of course, if things don't work out you can always cut things short and hit the tables. Just don't let him drag you near the baccarat tables!

-Sonny-

Say what??
Posted by zengrifter on 11-Aug-2005 14:15:24 (#13765)

"I have a dealer there that will draw and tell me the card."

Waht does that mean? zg

Say what?
Posted by Jay Lee on 11-Aug-2005 16:06:53 (#13771)

He has drawn a card and before my signal he would tell me the card.

What a crock of crap
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 11-Aug-2005 19:28:46 (#13781)

Foxwoods has electronic peekers and they always have. Along with bet capping the kind of collusion you're describing is the thing a store like that is watching for more than anything and it's unlikely you would get away with it for even one session. Instead of this BS you are selling, why don't you heed some advice and learn solid advantage play and maybe you can make some money there. Just stay far away from me if you are going to bring cheat heat on the table.

I'll point him out to you
Posted by Jay Lee on 12-Aug-2005 15:43:51 (#13791)

In the morning if you want. I'm not looking to cheat anybody I just want to play with an advantage.

Hole card I assume, maybe next card. *NM*
Posted by Sonny on 11-Aug-2005 16:30:20 (#13774)

Criminal activity?
Posted by LV Bear584 on 11-Aug-2005 14:41:40 (#13767)

I have a dealer there that will draw and tell me the card.

Do you mean the dealer deliberately tells you his hole card and/or the next card from the shoe? I hope I am misunderstanding you. If not, you are putting yourslef in serious jeopardy from this casino employee-criminal. Collusion is a felony in most gaming jurisdictions. Please clarify, thanks.

geez, LVB, delete your post...
Posted by zengrifter on 11-Aug-2005 16:39:44 (#13777)

... and let the guy respond FIRST! zg;)

Too late. Jay Lee has confirmed that the dealer is a criminal
Posted by LV Bear584 on 11-Aug-2005 18:22:56 (#13779)

Jay Lee, do not walk away from this dealer. RUN AWAY AS FAST AS YOU CAN. You could be looking at some serious prison time. This crooked situation is a time bomb waiting to explode. You don't want to be anywhere near it when it happens. There are many honest, legal ways to beat casainos. We don't have to become criminals to take their money.

THE CAT AND MOUSE GAME, PART II
Posted by zengrifter on 09-Aug-2005 19:25:11 (#13740)

THE CAT AND MOUSE GAME, PART II: IS THE GAME OVER?

By Bill Zender
(From Blackjack Forum Volume XXIV #4, Fall 2005)
© 2005 Blackjack Forum

[Editor's Note: In this article, Bill Zender, a former Gaming Control agent and successful co-owner/casino manager of the Aladdin Hotel and Casino, discusses the resistance of casino managers to objective lessons in casino math he provided at a recent seminar at the University of Nevada, Reno. Any poker player knows that to get action, you have to give action--and that means, give your opponent a chance to win. But casinos seem to want to sit there like the tightest players in the world and give absolutely nobody any chance to win. Bill Zender provides an excellent casino-side analysis of the flaw in this kind of thinking. --Arnold Snyder]

Several years ago I wrote an article on blackjack, published in Blackjack Forum, that detailed the card counting "Cat and Mouse" game that went on at the old Aladdin Hotel and Casino in the mid 1990's. The article outlined what our pit management at the Aladdin were doing to triage the potential risk to our bankroll; identify advantage players in blackjack that posed a real monetary problem, ignore knowledgeable players who did not wager enough to present an immediate risk, and loosen procedures, especially game protection procedures, that would be beneficial to the profit potential of the games.

During this time I concluded, in agreement with several other gaming experts and even a number of professional players, that an ongoing atmosphere of cat versus mouse was necessary to extend the health and wealth of the casino...

... continued here - http://blackjackforumonline.com/content/catandmousegameparttwo.htm

Question
Posted by The Big Cowboy on 10-Aug-2005 17:28:49 (#13755)

I don't understand why these casino employees who run the blackjack tables have no fear of losing their jobs if they do not produce a good, bottom-line revenue. Usually in the private sector, if your revenues are falling, then something is wrong and needs to be fixed. Or they will go the way of the dodo. Can you explain this to me? I'm not clear how you can implement a defense that decreases revenue and still feel that you are secure in your job.

Bill has answered this question...
Posted by zengrifter on 12-Aug-2005 13:59:56 (#13787)

... here and in the past. It really takes a very intelligent & confident casino manager to understand and implement the Zender approach without fear that a negative flux will lead to the loss of job(s). In Vegas, among the Casinos that have taken the Zender approach to some extaent include Plaza and other Barrick/Tamares clubs, Palace Station to the exclusion of other Station properties, and Suncoast to the exclusion of other Coast properties. zg

Multideck games
Posted by Jay Lee on 10-Aug-2005 17:36:36 (#13756)

Do you think it is better to play one on one with the dealer or with a few people? And if you play one on one is 2 hands better than one for a counter?

# of hands/players
Posted by BlackJackHack on 11-Aug-2005 01:12:58 (#13760)

Do you think it is better to play one on one with the dealer or with a few people? And if you play one on one is 2 hands better than one for a counter?

Preface: if you don't already know the answers to these questions, you shouldn't even THINK of playing with $100 chips, which, as suggested by your other posts, you have been doing with reckless abandon. Also, the following assumes that you are a competent card counter.

# of players:

In terms of producing the most +EV, it is always best to play head up, regardless of # of decks, since you'll get more hands per hour. This is particularly true in SD/DD.

That being said, it is nice to play with one or two other players in shoe games, so you can leave for the bathroom, or answer your (vibrating) cell phone, when the count tanks, so the ploppy can take all the crappy cards while you're in the can or talking on the phone. If you're playing solo, the crappy cards are still going to be there when you get back.

2 hands vs. 1 hand:

Going to 2 hands chews up approximately 1.5x as many cards as playing 1 hand, so you would need to bet 2 x 0.75 units to get the same "action" in +EV situations as betting 1 x 1 unit. Thus, your EV will be approximately the same with 1 x 1 or 2 x 0.75.

EV aside, in my view, there are cover advantages to playing two hands in positive counts since it makes your spread appear smaller. In my opinion, two stacks of 5 chips seems smaller than one oversized stack of 7 or 8 chips.

In -EV counts (assuming you are still playing) it is better to play 2 x 0.5 units rather than 1x1 unit, since it reduces your overall action, but this may hurt your cover.

What I think..
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 11-Aug-2005 02:47:44 (#13761)

>>Do you think it is better to play one on one with the dealer or with a few people?

This does not seem like an issue of conjecture to me. So, no AP "thinks" it's better to play one on one. They know when it is appropriate.

A good AP will want to play heads up at a decent single decker all day long.

It will destroy you in most shoe games. Who will eat the cards while you are peeing? The best thing to do is play a shoe with 2 other people. Actually, the best thing to do is not to play most shoes at all, in my opinion!

>>If you play one on one, is 2 hands better than one for a counter?

Usually not. But it depends how you do it. 2 hands raises variance. So you need more money to play this way strait up.

SD usually disallows this, so going to 2 hands in a shoe game at a higher counts is a resourceful tactic.

Starting with 2 hands, then drawing back, at a pitch game that allows this will get you backed off after about 10 seconds. So, even though it is profitable..... Don't, unless you are feeling the situation properly.

-Felix

Whoa!!!!!! Didn't notice
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 11-Aug-2005 02:57:08 (#13762)

your header.

No!!!!, never play any shoe game heads up. Period!... 1 or 2 or 50 hands.

You have to Wong shoes unless you can endure something like a 1 to 100 spread. You should never "play all" at any shoe game, ever.

-Felix

Release of FREE BJ Simulator!
Posted by Praying Mantis on 10-Aug-2005 18:52:37 (#13757)

ET Fan has released a FREE BJ simulator, SimSimp, that can be downloaded at:

http://www.blackjackforumonline.com/content/SimSimp_Beta.htm

It is free code that can be utilized and tweaked by anyone that knows a little code. Even if you're like me and can't write a single line of code...it works right out of the box!

Though it is very similiar to one at BJMath, it has many more features and is much faster. Best part...it's FREE! (Norm must be crying in his beer)(Just kidding)

Very cool! *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 11-Aug-2005 16:36:43 (#13776)

I don't drink beer
Posted by Norm Wattenberger on 12-Aug-2005 07:18:38 (#13784)

Norm must be crying in his beer

I don't see what this has to do with me.

Blackjack Scams

Norm, tell us about the LIMITATIONS...
Posted by zengrifter on 12-Aug-2005 13:53:22 (#13786)

... of this new DOS-based simulator. Other DOS-based simulators have been around for years and are of little use by neophytes like me who NEED a friendly Windows-type enviroment wherein we can point&click our way around.

Is ET's new SIM app noticeably better than previous similar DOS apps? zg

support@qfit.com
Posted by Norm Wattenberger on 12-Aug-2005 15:21:42 (#13789)

No. SBA and Omega II are both DOS based and vastly superior. Although SBA has a Windows front-end for most of its functions. As for limitations, if you look at the CVData and CVCX feature pages on my site, SimSimp contains zero of the listed features. And it cannot calculate SCORE.

A few people have suggested that I am upset at free 'competition.' On the contrary, SimSimp is more likely to increase interest in BJ simulation which can only increase my sales. Particularly when people become frustrated with SimSimp. But, that is not necessarily good. I have never suggested to anyone that they buy CVData. Unless you are willing to invest a great deal of time at BJ simulation, you are likely to make errors. And in this case a little knowledge is definitely dangerous. OTOH, everyone should have CVCX. But then, the heart of CVCX is free and online now.

CVCX Online

But then
Posted by Norm Wattenberger on 12-Aug-2005 15:25:56 (#13790)

I don't know my e-mail address from my Subject:)

OH Great !!...
Posted by BradRod on 12-Aug-2005 16:30:25 (#13794)

Now you tell me that CVCX is free and online now. After I invested in CVData.

Life:)
Posted by Norm Wattenberger on 12-Aug-2005 16:52:47 (#13795)

CVData and CVCX have very different uses. Also, the CVCX simulation capability isn't online. My server ain't that big.

Blackjack Scams

In BJ....
Posted by BradRod on 12-Aug-2005 15:17:03 (#13788)

...as in real life I expect you get what you pay for. I just invested in CVData. Haven't really gotten into it yet. But am looking forward to it really helping my play.

Are YOU the Norm I was referring to?
Posted by Praying Mantis on 12-Aug-2005 21:15:47 (#13797)

"I don't see what this has to do with me."

Are you sure I was referring to you? Of course I was.

Thicken your skin Norm...just having a little fun (even said 'just kidding').

Lighten up...this program is NOTHING to worry about, but your responses about it, make you look very defensive.

Regards,

My responses
Posted by Norm Wattenberger on 13-Aug-2005 07:30:33 (#13799)

are honest. If you want to see a defensive response; look at ET Fan's response. He tells me I'm short-sited because I would learn something if I released my code. But, he attacks me for giving him suggestions. Does he want them or not:) Pats on the back may be easier to read - but they aren't helpful.

Blackjack Scams

Hey Norm can I get a refund on my CVData?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 15-Aug-2005 12:53:58 (#13811)

Just kidding!!!

Although releasing your source code would have benefits for the BJ community, it would not have benefits for you therefore I wouldn't even suggest it.

Surely
Posted by Norm Wattenberger on 15-Aug-2005 19:00:42 (#13815)

I once processed a refund for someone six months after he bought CVBJ. I think I was impressed by his gall. Sort of like a guy that licks his plate clean at a restaurant, then says it was unsatisfactory and refuses to pay:)

Although releasing your source code would have benefits for the BJ community, it would not have benefits for you therefore I wouldn't even suggest it.

I tend to doubt it would have benefits for the community. CVData is table driven. It does not much resemble normal code. It is designed for easy maintenance. But only by me:) Clearly not designed for open source. I did rewrite the random number generator and posted it in case ET Fan or someone else wishes to use it yesterday. I think that is useful.

But thanks for the comments.

norm

RNG's
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 16-Aug-2005 12:47:47 (#13826)

Ah yes I've written a few RNG's myself. Back in my Commodore 64 days I got myself some unwanted attention by innocently releasing a RNG based funware cryptography program that exceeded the export standards of the time.

But I'm wondering how strongly random a RNG has to be for the purpose of simulating BJ. It's not like a shuffle is random, and I'd think speed would be more important. Have you observed any differences in short to medium term results using different strengths of RNG's?

the main issue is "period"
Posted by stainless steel rat on 16-Aug-2005 13:04:50 (#13828)

that is, how many unique random numbers does the RNG produce before it cycles around and starts over. This can wreck sims. Of course, uniformity is also important along with other characteristics, but the "weak" rng's have a very short period. No point in running a 2B round sim, if the result is the same as a 100K round sim repeated 2000 times...

Sounds like the makings of a horrible joke
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 17-Aug-2005 01:58:32 (#13831)

When I did my RNG's I allowed the user to select how many bits were desired and combined the appropriate number of 8-bit data streams, *without* allowing any coupling between the streams. If you allow them to couple they can get in sync with one another and shorten the period.

Unfortunately the only things in the universe that are probably random are individual quantum mechanical effects and the human mind. QM is hard to access but humans aren't when you have a keyboard. So when I wanted a real random number for a seed or something, I would ask the user silly questions ("What is your favorite ice cream, etc?") and use the system clock to measure the time delay of the keystrokes and get my number.

A few problems
Posted by Norm Wattenberger on 16-Aug-2005 13:13:55 (#13829)

1. Most simple RNG's have very obvious patterns. Many also degrade. After running for awhile, the patterns become more dramatic.

2. Many simple 32 bit RNG's actually only have 16 random bits. An example is the well-known congruential RNG using 69069.

3. When you wish to look at data like EV at high TC's; you need to run billions of rounds. LCG RNG's have famously low periods. If I remember correctly, Excel's repeats after 30,000 or so numbers.

These days there exist excellent 64 bit RNG's. May as well use one.

Index play 16v10, surrender ?
Posted by Cat_in_awe on 11-Aug-2005 11:00:28 (#13764)

One of the 'big' index plays is to stand with 16v10 with a count of 1 and >1. If surrender is allowed, should I still surrender? What about 15v10 ?

GPC

Yes, surrender...
Posted by zengrifter on 11-Aug-2005 14:17:25 (#13766)

... guys, what are the surrender indices? zg

-4 in Hi-Opt II... but...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 11-Aug-2005 15:39:10 (#13768)

... that index doesn't have very much value. Normally you've left the table by that point anyway. But surrender 15 vs.10 and 14 vs.10 are very powerful plays.

He wants those indice, too ...
Posted by zengrifter on 11-Aug-2005 16:26:18 (#13773)

...presumeably. zg

OK here are some
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 11-Aug-2005 16:34:28 (#13775)

14 vs. 10- surrender wherever you would stand on 12 vs. 3
15 vs.10, 16 vs 9- surrender unless you would draw on 12 vs. 4.
16 vs. A- surrender unless you would draw on 13 vs. 2 (S17)

These should be close enough, I don't know what count the fellow is using or the rules.

Late Surrender Index per SW's Pro Blackjack p269
Posted by KennilworthKid on 11-Aug-2005 16:02:57 (#13770)

For the shoe game the indices differ chiefly versus an ace depending on the soft 17 dealer action. All of the below indices are for Hi-Lo, don't have the indicies handy for the other count systems...

16 v 10 TC -2
16 v 9 TC 0
16 v A TC -1 (-4 H17)
(if 8-8, use 1, 7 and -5 for 10, 9, no sur S17 v A; -4 to 5 sur H17 v A)

the above are considered basic strategy

the following are the FAB 4

15 v 10 TC 0
15 v 9 TC 2
15 v A TC 1 (0 H17)
14 v 10 TC 3

also, per pg 93 of my copy of SW's book (the 1994 edition printed 2003)
always late surrender a 17 versus an Ace in a H17 shoe game--that differs from the indice listed in the appendix on page 269

The book is easy to find at your local Borders or Barnes & Noble. It sell for about $20...thus if you want to check out the single deck indicies, or the composition dependent indicies, which are slightly different, just buy the book.

Chumash New Single Deck
Posted by Qdini on 11-Aug-2005 15:40:29 (#13769)

Chumash Casino in Santa Barbara has a new Single Deck. No double down except 10 or 11, 1 card after splitting aces, only split once, black jack pays 6:5.....
You get only 5-6 hands playing heads up

Just wanted to see your guys opinions on this.....

6 to 5 ploppy ripoff garbage
Posted by LV Bear584 on 11-Aug-2005 18:18:28 (#13778)

... blackjack pays 6:5....

The game is total garbage. Here are a couple of links that may help you understand:

http://www.bj21.com/bj_reference/pages/41143.html

http://www.blackjack-scams.com/html/6_5_blackjack.html

blackjack at the Chumash
Posted by Victoria on 11-Aug-2005 18:39:14 (#13780)

If the Chumash Casino were located in Vegas or perhaps even Riverside or San Diego Counties in CA, it would be a complete blackjack joke and shunned by all but the most unknowledgable.
Besides the brand new 6/5 trash, their other game is a 6 deck H-17 with no late surrender that they cut off about 2.5 decks from as if they need to protect a horrible game in the first place. They appear to be totally paranoid without reason. They also have RFID chips and since they comp hardly anything more than a meal, they must be trying to evaluate players as if a counter would play their game.
There is a certain pit type there who must get the call whenever a big bettor is doing well and he stands over the table, tounge hanging out and looking straight at the player.
Poker room is ok I heard but blackjack is a total joke.

Victoria

I agree, but not totally
Posted by The Mayor on 12-Aug-2005 16:53:12 (#13796)

Yes their blackjack is a joke -- NEVER PLAY THERE -- NEVER SUPPORT THEIR GAMES -- DO NOT TRY AND BEAT THEIR GAMES.

You mention that you heard their poker room is ok. FALSE. They rake $4 out of every pot, no matter the limit on the game. With tokes, that is over a 20% house edge on their low-limit games.

Mayor is right
Posted by Garo on 13-Aug-2005 04:43:43 (#13798)

The only thing worth going to Chumash for are there tournaments. You aren't going to make a lot of money, but if you have a clue what you are doing you can have some fun winning a little. Also don't bother eating there, go to the Big Bopper in Solvang, excellent burgers!

You mean up to 4%?
Posted by Tom on 13-Aug-2005 12:38:54 (#13802)

Chumash use to have a good game years ago. Nothing but a bunch a scared sweathogs on the staff today. The BJ game really is a joke. I'll take the poker game over the BJ.

Correction,I mean up to a $4 rake? *NM*
Posted by Tom on 13-Aug-2005 20:00:55 (#13805)

No, it is *always* $4 (if there is a flop) *NM*
Posted by The Mayor on 13-Aug-2005 20:32:27 (#13806)

$4 rake upon the flop?
Posted by Anon on 13-Aug-2005 22:00:40 (#13807)

At one of the Florida cardrooms (Dania Jai-Lai) there is a minmum $1 rake regardless. In the $1,$2 Stud game, played without ante, the bring-in had one caller. There was no betting. The winner of the showdown got his dollar back. The other dollar went to the house.

If it's a $2,$4 Hold'em game you're talking about, if only the blinds see the flop and it's checked through, the entire $4 pot would go down the rake slot and the "winner" would get zero. Tell me it's not true.

FWIW, the $10,$20 Hold'em game at Sam's Town in Tunica operates on a 5% rake to $2 max. 5% to $4 is excessive, 10% to $4 is more than excessive and a flat $4 is an obscenity.

I would never grace the Chumash with my patronage.

What a ripp-off.
Posted by Tom on 13-Aug-2005 22:31:38 (#13808)

This is the only casino I'm aware of that downright steals at poker tables.
Most have a rake of "up to" X amount.

No competition
Posted by Victoria on 14-Aug-2005 11:33:52 (#13809)

Not saying that this is what happens everywhere but when you have no competition, a very affluent area, no regulation, and enough suckers to fill your tables you can easily get something like the Chumash.
Went there for the first time in about 6 months to see if blackjack had improved and if not to see what kind of comp points (that could be converted to cash) I had. Noticed that the dealers who were the ones who gave penetration were not there and that penetration was well over 2 decks! Had a meal and cashed what I could and left.

The Chumash is I believe over 200 miles away from the nearest casino.

Shew-weesh'
Posted by Tom on 14-Aug-2005 15:27:19 (#13810)

You seem to be implying the dealers who gave good pen were fired. I dont think this is the case. You can go back next year and see new faces again. I'm sure a cheesy place like the Shew has a great deal of turn over...dealers will change with the weather. No competition is not the reason they have a bad game,sweat is. Once upon a time, the Shuu-wee actually had a decent blackjack game.

did not mean they fired them
Posted by Victoria on 15-Aug-2005 16:18:49 (#13814)

I did not mean they fired them, and it had been some time since I had played there but I keep notes on dealers and found out that X and Y went to Riverside County and Z is back in Vegas etc.

Sweating a bad game and they certainly do, I find bordering on ridiculous. If you want to present a good game and then sweat it as they do in a few places in Vegas, I understand that and appreciate the challenge of the sweat with the reward of the good game. When you have a game not worth playing and then sweat it, it leaves me scratching my head and laughing at them.
Still think if another place appeared a half hour away from them they might be forced to improve things but you may be right and the ploppies have no clue at all.

Victoria

You are absolutely correct about the effect of competition.
Posted by Anon on 15-Aug-2005 21:00:36 (#13817)

It's a peculiar phenomenon in that comptition breeds the best playing conditions for the patrons and increased volume for the clubs. I don't think the description "Win-Win" would be technially accurate, but you know what I mean.

But no one can build one next door
Posted by Victoria on 16-Aug-2005 00:42:38 (#13818)

It would be nice if there was another casino built by another tribe closeby but that is very unlikely. In the meantime it is my understanding that they are extremely profitable and we all know they are extremely greedy.

Victoria

Greed
Posted by Sun Runner on 16-Aug-2005 09:23:30 (#13822)

> .. and we all know they are extremely greedy.

Can you blame them? Wouldn't you be?

You say 'greed' like it is a bad thing. :)

Patrons and volumes
Posted by Sun Runner on 16-Aug-2005 09:18:38 (#13821)

> It's a peculiar phenomenon in that competition breeds
> the best playing conditions for the patrons and increased volume for the clubs.

Generally I would agree but this gambling thing that seems to be sweeping the landscape twists that tried and true axiom. It seems they can contstantly water down the attractions and their 'patrons' keep coming. Of course, I suppose, from one bad casino to the next you might be able to say competion might count for something. Maybe.

And by the way .. you and I are NOT the patrons. Primarily the casino business plan today seems to be keeping a facade of 'let's gamble!' but in truth it is only concerned with how best to market to net losers with more disposable income than good sense. They already have the deginerates hooked by the ass so they don't concern themselves with them at all.

People like us; it's the same as it always has been. See what's offered, today, then look for a flaw, a weakness, or an advanatge to overcome it.

The essence of Advantage Play
Posted by Sonny on 16-Aug-2005 10:14:59 (#13825)

> See what's offered, today, then look for a flaw, a weakness, or an advanatge
> to overcome it.

That single sentence says it all.

We've already beaten the pitch games, the shoe games, the CSMs, the weak hand shuffles, the front loaders, the spookers, the numerous sidebets, and everything else they've thrown at us. They keep changing the game and we keep finding new ways to beat it legally. Sure, they're not making it easy for us, but the most profitable strategies are the ones the casinos don't know about!

-Sonny-

Las Vegas Tribune Headline Story...
Posted by zengrifter on 15-Aug-2005 13:29:46 (#13812)

... featuring Bob Nersesian, Al Rogers, L.V. Bear, and others,
here - http://lasvegastribune.com/headline1.html

Marked cards
Posted by Jay Lee on 15-Aug-2005 15:46:38 (#13813)

How do they cheat you using marked cards? LV. Bear lays the blame thoroughly at the feet of Gaming Control, noting the case of a computerized tracking device that the Eldorado Casino was utilizing to illicitly improve their profits (i.e., cheat) at blackjack: "The Board had to be sued before it agreed to take action to stop [the Eldorado's] cheating at blackjack, through a computerized table that uses marked cards. Incredibly, the Board has permitted the continued use of the marked cards, but has made it less easy, though not impossible, for casinos to use the device to cheat patrons. The Board refuses to publicly disclose a copy of the anti-cheating orders it claims to have issued. Without the embarrassment of being sued for refusing to do its job, the Board would likely have continued to do nothing while the cheating went on unabated."

Mindplay machines *LINK*
Posted by Sonny on 16-Aug-2005 09:57:20 (#13824)

Check them out:

http://www.ballysystems.com/sds/mindplay_products1.asp

Basically, it is a computerized shoe that scans the marked cards as they are dealt and transmits that information (along with various information like the size of every player's bet) to the main computer. The pit bosses can then use this information to decide how much to comp a certain player based on their bet size and skill, or tell the dealer to shuffle the shoe every time it gets too positive. There are numerous ways to cheat using this machine, but the casinos promise that they won't use it to cheat. Yeah, right. If I use a blackjack computer I will go to prison.

Searching these posts (or any blackjack website) with the keywork "mindplay" will bring up everything you need to know about these evil machines.

-Sonny-

Do they stack the shoe?
Posted by Jay Lee on 17-Aug-2005 14:56:53 (#13832)

How else can they cheat. It doesn't sound so bad if they don't use preferential shuffling.

El Dorado in Reno
Posted by Victoria on 17-Aug-2005 19:03:07 (#13836)

Does just that and was cause for a lawsuit. When the remaining cards favored the players they shuffled, when they favored the house they dealt on.

Victoria

Story made it to a big headline site *LINK*
Posted by Rob Vega on 20-Aug-2005 13:29:55 (#13860)

Good news. This story made it to the front page of FARK.com. This is a popular headlines-with-a-twist/weird news internet site. A lot of 20-30s types, guys mostly.

It's under the headline "Study finds the only thing more crooked than the mafia running casinos are big corporations running casinos". The left link is the article, The right link is the comments section. My comments are from 'ElectroPuma'.

- Rob V.

Interesting thread
Posted by LVBear584 on 20-Aug-2005 16:16:32 (#13861)

The amount of ignorance expressed in the thread about casinos and the games is astounding. It illustrates how futile it is to try to educate the masses about casino ripoffs. Thanks for posting it.

yep
Posted by Rob Vega on 20-Aug-2005 23:16:01 (#13863)

I hear you, it's really disheartening the level of ignorance. I'm used to people not bothering to learn BS, but the "counters are cheats" type comments are astounding. It takes a special level of delusion to keep believing that casino-pushed propaganda.

However, I appreciate your recent efforts to improve the situation in spite of it all.

Casino message gets through
Posted by Victoria on 21-Aug-2005 12:06:08 (#13864)

The usual response of these big corporations will not cheat players, the game is on the up and up, etc. Plus the message of advantage play is a form of cheating, has to me gotten through well enough that someone like the MGM did this without to much of a worry about bad publicity and no worry at all about the Nevada Gaming Stooges. The replies on that forum reflects this.
Add to this specials like the one ran on MSNBC, where once again we are cheaters, and the public begins to think that we are criminals, take the side of the casinos and when it is apparant that the casino is in the wrong, I see these people saying, "there must be more to this story."

Mindset of casinos: We can do and get away with just about anything we want.

The good news: Finally there has been some positive results in court but the penalty needs to also create a change in public opinion.

Victoria

Casino abuse story link moved to here ...
Posted by zengrifter on 12-Sep-2005 12:24:24 (#13999)

... http://lasvegastribune.com/20050812/headline1.html

bet spread
Posted by barbie on 15-Aug-2005 19:46:31 (#13816)

For theoreticians out there, if you bet 0 in all neg counts (ie, min bet = 0), and spread appropriately into pos counts, is it fair to say your "bet spread" is infinite?

yes, but only if your bankroll is infinite, too :) *NM*
Posted by Myooligan on 16-Aug-2005 02:25:02 (#13819)

Probably not
Posted by Sonny on 16-Aug-2005 09:26:44 (#13823)

> For theoreticians out there, if you bet 0 in all neg counts (ie, min bet =
> 0), and spread appropriately into pos counts, is it fair to say your "bet
> spread" is infinite?

What is your maximum bet? If you answered "infinity" then you are playing with an infinite spread. However, table maximums, finite bankrolls, max bet limitations (to preserve an acceptable ROR), and cover betting will prevent this from happening.

Most players will max out at a bet of <=1% of their bankroll at a TC of around +5. That is why most bet spreads are stated as a ratio. Playing during positive counts only will give you a wider bet spread, but certainly not an infinite one.

-Sonny-

Actually, I've wondered that myself! *NM* *PIC*
Posted by zengrifter on 16-Aug-2005 14:20:36 (#13830)

Wendover and Mesquite crowd conditions
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 16-Aug-2005 12:51:59 (#13827)

I'm planning a trip to these venues between Christmas and New Year's Eve to play SD. I've heard everything good about them, especially Wendover. Can anyone tell me what kinds of crowds and heat to expect? I'm planning on spreading green to black. Thanks in advance.

That's usually a slow week everywhere
Posted by LV Bear584 on 17-Aug-2005 17:10:05 (#13834)

The week between Christmas and New Year's is usually slow throughout Nevada. Though I haven't been to Wendover or Mesquite during that particular week, I doubt if they're any different. I'm scheduled to be in Wendover during that week this year, though. Perhaps our paths will cross.

Unless you have a specific reason to go to Mesquite, don't bother. There's not much worthwhile in Mesquite. It's very low-roller, much like Laughlin. Green chips and above stand out. When the casinos are near-empty, the tables are managed full by closing other tables. It is tough to find playable conditions, especially at single deck.

A better alternative to Mesquite is Jackpot, about 125 miles from Wendover. When making plans note that Wendover and Jackpot are the only places in Nevada that are on Mountain time rather than Pacific time.

Wendover + Jackpot....
Posted by zengrifter on 17-Aug-2005 18:19:10 (#13835)

...makes far better sense! zg

Makes sense
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 17-Aug-2005 22:25:59 (#13839)

My reasoning behind going to Mesquite was that if tables were too crowded for SD, I could play DD, and hit the southern part of the state and return home from Las Vegas. But if the crowds are going to be manageable there's no reason to do that. The only drawback I can see to Jackpot is that if I get the boot from those stores there's nothing worthwhile close by. But I'll take your word for it.

If you'd like, send me a note at automatic_monkey_21@hotmail.com
I'm always willing to eat cards or perform other useful tricks in order to learn from a pro at the table.

How are you getting there? *LINK*
Posted by Sonny on 19-Aug-2005 14:51:30 (#13855)

Isn't Wendover something like 3 hours from Salt Lake City an 2 hours from Elko (not that anyone would go to Elko in the first place)? Where are you flying into? I've been trying to plan a trip there for a while but it seems so out-of-the-way. I guess that's the magic of Wendover.

-Sonny-

Junkets to Elko
Posted by Anon on 19-Aug-2005 15:39:01 (#13857)

http://www.casinofuntours.com/elko/

Casino Express
Posted by Sonny on 19-Aug-2005 17:30:28 (#13859)

I've been getting newsletters from these people, but I heard that the games in Elko weren't really worth the travel. We'll see...

-Sonny-

Elko's not worth the trip...
Posted by zengrifter on 21-Aug-2005 16:26:31 (#13867)

... not even for the brothels. zg

Certainly not
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 23-Aug-2005 16:56:19 (#13874)

I'm not going to finalize my plans until the December CBJN comes out. Who knows what could change? As it is now the only reason I would stop in Elko would be if I were passing through and wanted to spread aggressively until backed off, and just head on down the road. I might even drive down to Laughlin and head back from LAS.

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