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Threads 1591 to 1620

OKLAHOMA CASINOS
Posted by PlumBob on 31-Jan-2005 06:08:21 (#11989)

The Cherokee casino in Tulsa,Ok opened their Class 3 Table games last
Thursday 1-27-2005. I went out to play Sat nite. Each player had to {AN'TE}
$.50 per hand on bets up to $50.00 & $1.00 per hand on bets of $51.00 or more.
They had two $5.00 tables & ten $10.00 tables plus some $15.00 & $25.00 tables also. They plan to have aprox 30 tables of bj. Many other Indian casinos in
the state will have table games in the near future. My problem was the AN'TE.
It seemed to eat away at my chips really fast. Maybe $25.00 to $40.00 per hour.
Have You ever heard of AN'TE on bj?

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Yes
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 31-Jan-2005 10:32:56 (#11990)

Some of the California Indian casinos used to charge juice. As I recall, it was a $1.00 per hand regardless of the amount you were betting. This type of expense makes the game very bad. On the other hand, if you are betting $500 a hand, and the game is otherwise good, this wouldn't be a problem.

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The Ante
Posted by Sun Runner on 31-Jan-2005 11:59:08 (#11991)

They are charging the ante (rake) because they do not have an unlimited gaming license like say LV or Tunica. The state of Oklahoma sees to that.

Therefore, if I understand correctly, the house only is supposed to be earning the ante. The BJ profits that accumulate in the tray must be re-paid back in the form of giveaways, free tournamnets, something. I do not believe the house is allowed possession of the BJ profits. (But I'm not naieve either.)

To answer your question, ShaggyVW is right; straight counting those lower limit games puts your EV in the tank. Unless you can play to the higher limits (you figure where the BE is) it is a sucker bet.

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you are correct, with the exception of...
Posted by okie on 31-Jan-2005 12:47:40 (#11992)

betting higher limits. The majority of the casinos will simply continue to raise the ante (commission)as the amount of money played goes up. There may be some exceptions to the rule but I doubt it. At best you will be playing with an additional 1% disadvantage. If you are looking for an opportunity to make money, check out the Oklahoma Poker. Observe one game for about 30 minutes and tell me if your mouth doesn't start watering.

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Message for EYEinTHEsky *LINK*
Posted by Dog Hand on 31-Jan-2005 15:20:59 (#11994)

EiTs,

I recalled reading a few days ago that you had recently lost your job as a surveillance supervisor. Well, if you'd be willing to relocated to Lake Charles, LA (about 50000 people, southwest corner of Louisiana, right on I-10), you may wish to apply for the job of surveillance supervisor at the soon-to-be-opened L'auberge du Lac (owned by Pinnacle). You can call 1-866-LDLJOBS for more information, or click the link below to go directly to the on-line application.

Alternatively, you can always try making your money on OUR side of the baize!

Dog Hand

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thanks *LINK*
Posted by EYEinTHEsky on 31-Jan-2005 16:41:39 (#11995)

Hey, thanks for the info!!!!!!

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Announcing: The ZenZone
Posted by zengrifter on 31-Jan-2005 17:31:04 (#11996)

Announcing: The ZenZone

This board is for news and discussion of controversial matters, science, extreme-politics, and general weirdness. Patrons previously of the CC.com 'nonBJ' board are now invited to participate in or otherwise partake of one of the Internet's most fascinating reading and discussion rooms.

Posts of the ZenZone date back nearly 30 months.

Anything goes in the ZenZone except blatant spam. zg

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Does this mean????
Posted by phantom007 on 02-Feb-2005 22:35:27 (#12002)

That the non-BJ Board can once again be used for non-BJ AP and occasional jokes?

I am currently learning Texas Fold-em'.....can I post questions to same there?

Nothing against ZG's intellectual, liberalist, and/or conspiracy stands....just that even if true, us Republicans do not really care!....as long as, OF COURSE, we are extruding $$$ from the working masses under the guidance of alien intelligence.

GRIN!

phantom007.

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Leaving for LV.....in a Day or Three......
Posted by phantom007 on 02-Feb-2005 23:04:00 (#12004)

Soon to be heading out West. Will carry, via Traveler's Checques, close to the "required 1440 units". Plan to spread G-B on SD, and R-G on "others", except El Cortez (R-B...red-to-brown) and just got to check out the Festern (W-W, i.e., white-to-white).

Always pisses-off Cashier's to spend about 30-min. validating your $1K worth of Traveler's Checques!

Trip will be about 1/2 DT and 1/2 Strip.

The GOOD NEWS is that trip is being paid by my Employer.....no -EV so far.

Even BETTER NEWS, hotel stays are comp'd....+EV!

Which means, EVEN BETTER YET, I save $$$ from my Employer-provided fund to use later trip(s) this year....++EV!

But THE BAD NEWS....invitations have been sent and accepted for me to meet up with a well-known CC on this Board...a very LIBERAL one at that!.....Since his intellect is superior to mine (Compliment Intentional and Sincere)....I may come back from this LV trip.....

SUPPORTING GOV'T PAYMENT FOR THOSE ON WELFARE FOR GETTING FERTILITY DRUGS!

I guess that is why they call it "Gambling"!

phantom007.

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Be sure ...
Posted by The Mayor on 03-Feb-2005 00:02:06 (#12005)

Be sure to look at the top games in vegas link posted on this site. But, green to black at single deck? In Las Vegas? Are you nuts, man?

Hope you do well, and that you return with policital convictions that you firmly believe.

--Mayor

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Mayor, mabye I'm nuts...
Posted by Greasy John on 03-Feb-2005 15:44:18 (#12016)

but I was considering $50 to $200 3:2 SD, opening for $100, sometimes opening for $150 so that my highest ($200 bet) doesn't look so bad, and leaving out $150 if a push; decreasing and increasing gradually. Sometimes opening for $25 (just to break it up and not look predictable) but not jumping my bet or betting above $50 in this case. I would welcome your opinion on this.

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Try it and report back...
Posted by The Mayor on 03-Feb-2005 18:03:31 (#12021)

>but I was considering $50 to $200 3:2 SD, opening for $100, sometimes opening for $150 so that my highest ($200 bet) doesn't look so bad, and leaving out $150 if a push; decreasing and increasing gradually. Sometimes opening for $25 (just to break it up and not look predictable) but not jumping my bet or betting above $50 in this case. I would welcome your opinion on this.

You will last 30 seconds at the El Cortez, and about 10 minutes at the LVC. Once you get backed-off at the LVC, you will also be backed off at the Plaza and Western (the Western has a great game). Then you'll get your face flyered all over town and not be happy.

Try it and see...

You are much better off with a $200 max bet learning double-deck... you can play that ALL over town. Spread $25 to $200 -- no problem at DD.

--Mayor

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I would have walked...
Posted by Greasy John on 03-Feb-2005 20:36:06 (#12028)

from the Stardust to the Barbary Coast for your opinion on this.

Thanks. GJ

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hmmm
Posted by stainless steel rat on 03-Feb-2005 21:57:54 (#12029)

I wouldn't walk to the BC to get out of a fart-filled room full of cigar smokers that had not seen the inside of a shower in 60 days...

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The BC
Posted by Sonny on 04-Feb-2005 10:47:45 (#12035)

> I wouldn't walk to the BC to get out of a fart-filled room full of cigar
> smokers that had not seen the inside of a shower in 60 days...

Don’t be so hasty to write them off. I’ve heard all the rumors about how sweaty they can be (which are often true), but they can still be worth a few units here and there if you know when to go. I was Wonging there a few months ago and found a few incredibly beatable DD games. It is highly dealer-dependent. I even saw one other counter, although he was not playing a winning game. Their 50% penetration doesn’t work too well for straight counting, but other opportunities abound.

-Sonny-

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been there
Posted by stainless steel rat on 04-Feb-2005 11:01:52 (#12036)

played at a DD game there in '04. 20 minutes. $25 min. Count never went above zero. Flat bet $25 and lost maybe 1-2 hands. Won several hundred bucks just sitting there and playing mindlessly. Until "the tap". Told me to follow them they had a "few questions to ask and a few forms to fill out." I refused. Got reasonably ugly, got read a short statement from a card in the suit's pocket, gist of which was "don't come back or you will be arrested for trespassing."

Yes I was counting. No I did not vary my bet. In fact the only odd thing I did was hit a 12 vs 4 or 5 once or twice on negative counts. I assume that if you win there, you get run off whether you are counting or just lucky. In this case I was just lucky.

And I'll take that fart/smoke/stink-filled room any time rather than visiting there again. :) Even without the 86 warning.

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Similar experience but without 86
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 04-Feb-2005 11:56:48 (#12037)

I also played green there for a few minutes in '04 and won a few hundred dollars. I Wonged my way from one door to the other and never looked back. Then I crossed the street and rendered it all unto Caesar. Oh well.

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for me
Posted by stainless steel rat on 04-Feb-2005 17:00:23 (#12040)

They were pretty hostile. Said "come with me." I said "no". They said "we can force you to come with us." I said "you can try". Etc. I started to walk toward the front and said "I'm leaving". Two-three "suits" followed and read me this brief statement from a small card they had handy. I never looked back and got my wife to cash me out later (she was not close by when this happened but she saw it and knew something was up...).

That is my only "barring" in my plaing career. I've been backed off a few times, one due to no action of my own. Played at a table (I don't remember specifics but I think it was a 6d shoe as I was spreading $5 to $100, guy walks up behind me and when I bet $100, he plunks down $1000 as a "back bet" or whatever it is called. The third time he did this, we both got "the tap". Security suits accused us of being a team and we were both told "no more BJ".

Rest of my backoffs were the result of stupidity on my part, such as playing way too long, or not recognizing warning signs, etc...

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Please let me "Rephrase".....
Posted by phantom007 on 03-Feb-2005 23:34:34 (#12030)

Would "1-2 Green to 3-4 Green/1-2 Hands " be more platable!?....as regarding SD?

Anyhow, I rarely play more than a net 2-3:1 Spread on SD.....Except of course, at El Cortez, where I am given "free reign" to a 6:1, as long as I politely tip the Waitress, Dealer, AND PC....who empties my ashtray every time I "flick".

AM I NUTS? Yes, Probably!!!!

Counting hours of study, practice, play, travel, expenses for same plus buying most every book on BJ available, would I be much further ahead to just work more shifts at my "Regular Job"????

YES!!!!!

But BJ IS MORE FUN! It is my hobby!

I once asked an AUTISTIC Kid why he kept doing things repetitively, like I mean #80 times of going down a sliding board, running around, climbing the ladder, AND SLIDING DOWN AGAIN!, "Why are you doing that?"

He, at age 7, replied, "BECAUSE I LIKE IT!".

I play BJ, "BECAUSE I LIKE IT!"

phantom007.

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Phantom007.....
Posted by MrPill on 03-Feb-2005 12:56:49 (#12014)

.....Good cards to you on your trip.

I'm off to tourney-land and some other good games as well.

Pill

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no heat at california indian casinos?
Posted by fanmoney on 03-Feb-2005 01:58:36 (#12006)

Is it me, or does it seem like there's just about no heat at the indian
casinos in Northern California? Anyone else have similar experience?
Maybe I'm not betting/winning enough for anyone to notice ($10-$100 spread).

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It only takes heat once...
Posted by The Mayor on 03-Feb-2005 09:04:32 (#12010)

I assume you are talking about the games along rt. 20, and others just north of Santa Rosa off Hwy 101. I surveyed those games last summer, and found one very good game (I hope that is the one you are playing at), but the rest sucked. It is a long drive home once you realize that the only game in town has been closed down to you.

--Mayor

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Cal heat
Posted by Victoria on 03-Feb-2005 17:47:00 (#12018)

The California Indian Casinos really can not be lumped together as a group. There are several that have better shoe games than the average game on the strip, others where the games are weak or worse.
Some of them are run by very experienced major casino trained managers and others are run by god only knows who.
Some have very experienced pit types and others have mainly dual rates who wish they were dealing that day.
Some are in very competitive areas and others are all by themselves with no other casino closer than three hours away.
Some are completely full with local players and others have fewer regulars.
Some are in affluent areas and others in poor areas.

All of this and more make an individual casino or an area with many casinos different than the casinos in other parts of the state, and an understanding of this can make certain opportunities apparant.

Most of these places are crowded and the players as a rule are bad. The house is making much more money than they had ever imagined just a few short years ago. The table is loaded with regulars who nearly always loose and along comes a player with a spread of $10-$100 who if he wins can not even begin to dent their profits.
The smart ones will let you play! They have no need to stop you and do not want any kind of embarrassing situation to disturb their money making machine even temporarily.
The average place probably will not even notice you unless you do something to point yourself out. Even if they do notice and decide to do something, they will tend to reduce penetration rather than confront.
The incompetitent places (they exist and advantages can be found in more areas than just counting) will have no clue unless you announce the fact to them and then they will bounce you.

That said; if you stick out you can get heat. I have only seen one backoff in a Cal Casino. A place where no one seems to bet more than $200-$300 but they have a $1,000 limit on their $25 table. In DD game, guy goes from two hands of $100 to two hands of $500 to two hands of $1,000, as count was rising. (I just sat down on his third hand as I was backcounting. Once his bet was pulled back the pit told the dealer to shuffle, a missed opportunity). Now probably they knew earlier that this guy was counting but I think his spread and aggression was above their tollerance level. Or it was possible that he was not even counting.

I think overall there is just more heat in Vegas because it is Vegas. They know every AP at some time will stop into town. They are always in competition with the casino next door. They always fear a team in town. Probably most importantly, the evaluation of a pit type, if they let an obvious counter get away with things, will not be good and could cost him his job. I think it might have been Bryce Carlson who said something to the effect that the pit really does not care if you compared to if you make them look bad. In other words, the pit is more worried over their job than worried about the casinos money.

Victoria

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Good advice ... and
Posted by The Mayor on 03-Feb-2005 17:54:43 (#12020)

This player was referring to casinos in NoCal -- not the San Diego, Palm Springs lot. My experience is that there is exactly ONE casino north of San Fran along the 101 corridor worth playing. If you only have one chance, it's worth being extra careful.

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thanks
Posted by fanmoney on 04-Feb-2005 00:18:03 (#12031)

Thanks for the advice! Will definitely be careful when I venture
to new joints around here.

Now I'm curious about that good game - been grinding it out at the
sucky shoe games on weekends I can't get down to Reno.

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Send me personal email
Posted by The Mayor on 04-Feb-2005 09:26:16 (#12033)

I'll be happy to share the good one via personal email:

eliot@integrity-intl.com

But let me tell you, it is the most difficult one to get to from where you live...

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Beating California "No-Bust" Blackjack
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 03-Feb-2005 02:06:30 (#12007)

I walked into Bay 101 a couple of weeks ago and watched this game being played. What I found surprising is the dearth of references on the game, rules, BS, or advantage play. This can't be an accident.

But if the game is played the way I think it's played, it seems quite beatable. Before I talk about it, I'd like to know if discussions of advantage play in this game are embargoed here as a potential risk to advantage opportunities. Thanks.

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Aside from banking...
Posted by The Mayor on 03-Feb-2005 09:01:20 (#12009)

Aside from banking the games, I have never heard of anyone proposing that the games in the urban CA casinos can be beaten. Up to you...

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interested
Posted by Canuck on 03-Feb-2005 09:47:27 (#12011)

I've never heard of this game, I'm interested in how it's palyed as well as advantage theory behind it

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Banking and occasionally playing
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 03-Feb-2005 11:11:33 (#12013)

There are two aspects to my idea to beat it that make it kind of a mix of BJ and poker strtaegy. The first is banking the game after analyzing the play of the players at the table and making sure it is bad enough for the banker to beat the house vig. When I was there, I saw several players who only played and several more who took turns banking. The second is counting, and playing and declining to bank at any time the count indicates an advantage to the player.

But I haven't been able to find a basic strategy for the game and it was difficult enough even getting a straight story on the rules. Anyone know of any online resources?

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I found the rules *LINK*
Posted by Canuck on 03-Feb-2005 13:52:51 (#12015)

the wizard seems to always be a step ahead of the game.

link below to the rules of the game

I'd like to help you with this if you want to take it offline.

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Uh oh, I see a problem
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 03-Feb-2005 17:39:52 (#12017)

It's a combination of this business called the "cooperation", and the fact that a player has an edge before the vig but not after the vig.

Read carefully what he wrote- the cooperation is a heavily bankrolled player who is paid by the casino to be there (translation: he's a shill who gets his any vig he pays kicked back to him) and will always bank, and is not required to play unless he is paid by another player to do so, BUT it doesn't say he cannot play at other times. And if he plays, he has the advantage over the banker because he isn't really paying a vig. So I'll bet you a beer that if a skilled player sits down and starts banking and is perceived to be a problem, the cooperation will start playing and blow you right out of your chair. And you can't do it back to him- you're paying a vig.

So the only answer I can see is to only bank when the player is at a disadvantage even before the vig. And I can't see where that will ever occur being the bust rules are favorable to the player and the only bonus is a 2-1 payout for two jokers which is a rare hand. You might have a better chance as a player because the dealer is still required to draw on 16 and the player is not, but I think you'd need an enormous spread. But given the fact that all bankers at the table are not facing the same costs of being the banker I think I would definitely avoid banking, given what I've just read.

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UBZ II question.
Posted by newcomer on 03-Feb-2005 06:37:51 (#12008)

any one could give me some basic knowledge of UBZ II? I used it half year ago and kind of forget now. I like it very much.
The basic counting scheme seems like following:

2,3, 7 + 1;

4,5,6 + 2;

8, 9 0;

A -1;

T,J,Q,K -2;

Is the above scheme complelely right?

For 2 deck game, what is staring counter index? what is basic betting scheme with UBZ II for 2 deck game? what is the play variance?
I18 is good enough for me?

thanks a lot!

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that looks like a balanced count to me
Posted by Canuck on 03-Feb-2005 09:54:54 (#12012)

you have a total of -9 for the negative cards and a total of +9 for the positive cards so you should start it at 0. if I'm not mistaken.

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the 3 is valued at +2 not +1 *NM*
Posted by suicyco maniac on 03-Feb-2005 19:07:44 (#12024)

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thanks! V
Posted by newcomer on 03-Feb-2005 19:17:18 (#12025)

Thanks.I just found out that I put the zen count index there. I think that you are right, the 3 is +2 indead of +1.
what is the IRC then for DD game? -4?
what is the optimal betting scheme for 2 D game?

what is the key count that we need to jump the bet size?
BTW, where to buy geoge C 's book Advanced Card counting?
thanks?

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I don't play UBZ2
Posted by suicyco maniac on 03-Feb-2005 19:59:26 (#12026)

So I am by no means an authority on this count but a good friend of mine does play UBZ2 so I have some secondhand knowledge. The pivot is +2 which is equal to about the same edge as +2 hilo. The IRC is 4X the number of decks subtracted from +2 so for a DD game it would be -6 for a 4 deck -14 etc. SM

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Oh ya...
Posted by suicyco maniac on 03-Feb-2005 20:00:47 (#12027)

...I know you can buy it over on advantageplayer.com or bjrnet.com and I am sure there are other sites as well. SM

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My Review of The Blackjack Zone
Posted by Yoscooter on 03-Feb-2005 17:51:44 (#12019)

First, some background on me. I have played BJ for several years. I learned KO a few years ago and used it several times in casino play. After that my trips to the casinos were less frequent and I didn't keep up my skills to count. Since then I just play basic strategy. If my trips become more frequent I will become more proficient at counting again. I visit cardcounter.com regularly and wanted to read the Mayor's new book. It was a very easy read and I finished it in no time. I liked the references to the BJ Zone and how it reflects basic strategy errors and the lifetime cost to a player. The BJ Zone is an easy way to explain why I hit A7 against a T to a friend when they ask and think that 18 is a good hand. I can then just say that over your lifetime that costs you x$s. When they look ! at me like I'm crazy I can give them the book. It explains it better than I can. I especially liked chapter 45 - Ten Ways Advantage Play Can Help You Win At Life. It relates BJ opportunities to life in general. It explains how key points to winning at BJ also apply to everyday life. The chapter written by the Mayor's wife was also especially good. I think it's important to have a supportive spouse any time you are doing things that involve financial risk. It would be very difficult to gamble without the trust of a good spouse. Overall the book is excellent for a beginning or casual BJ player. It explains some of the math of the game into a very basic and easy to understand way.

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Steve Forte Comments on BJAP
Posted by zengrifter on 03-Feb-2005 18:12:00 (#12022)

Subject: Comments on Blackjack Ace Prediction
posted by Steve_Forte on BlackjackForumOnline.com

-----------------

Some months back I was asked to endorse a new book on Ace Prediction by David McDowell.

Not being an active player, I first declined and suggested that the book was better reviewed by professional players. I was asked again. Given a minor business relationship with Michael Dalton (he sells my video series), and some limited, albeit enjoyable correspondence with the author, I acquiesced.

I flipped through the book quickly, noting a lengthy history of the strategy and what appeared to be an exhaustive mathematical/computer analysis. My first impressions were good. I then randomly arrived on a photo of a sorted deck with a reference to me and a related strategy. Having never talked with the author about this reference, I read this section quickly, and to be perfectly honest, the reference was taken completely out of context and I was puzzled by the author's application.

So I then flipped to some of the endorsements and noticed a list of icons in the blackjack world. Since I really didn't have the time to read the book carefully, I blindly jumped to the conclusion that, after 20 plus years, someone had finally written a dedicated, quality book on ace tracking.

Now, after looking over some of the analysis and comments submitted by Arnold Snyder, and going back to the book to review some of the material, I suspect that I may be guilty of (a) trying to be a nice guy and (b) falling into a common trap often seen in gambling literature: that of endorsing a product not read carefully by the endorser, or endorsing a product more strongly than it truly deserves.

Aside from my personal feelings that the author's intentions are good, Arnold Snyder's position is very strong. It's also very compelling as he backs up his opinion with substance. A careful reread of Ace Prediction does reveal some oddities regarding the fundamentals of applying the strategy, some overly optimistic bet expectations, and win rates where none appear to exist. To over-rate the profit potential of a strategy or system can, of course, be very dangerous and costly to the typical player.

It's for all of these reasons that it makes perfect sense to challenge the viability of the strategy as presented. It's good for everyone: authors, experts, mathematicians and, most importantly, the players. After all, with any book written for the player, ultimately, only one criteria really matters: Does the strategy win?

How this notably different view of this work plays out in the blackjack community should prove to be a valuable lesson to us all. It will be especially interesting to see if any other endorsers "step up to the plate" after taking a closer look at the research.

Steve Forte

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Great post at rge21.com
Posted by The Mayor on 03-Feb-2005 18:20:18 (#12023)

I refer you to the post from your brethren, Zen*fighter*:

http://www.advantageplayer.com/blackjack/forums/bj-main/webbbs.cgi?read=15279

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Still not right
Posted by Syph on 04-Feb-2005 07:24:55 (#12032)

I refer to the post by ETFan.

http://www.advantageplayer.com/blackjack/forums/bj-main/webbbs.cgi?read=15286

Best,
Syph

(ps incidentally, the new errata has even bigger flaws)

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Correct, and...
Posted by The Mayor on 04-Feb-2005 10:05:37 (#12034)

The Ace sequencing thread is worth following as it developes on rge21.com. They have some of the sharpest minds in the biz over there... As they say in Zendom, "lie still and wait..."

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The expression is: "Be still and...
Posted by zengrifter on 04-Feb-2005 12:38:56 (#12038)

...KNOW" zg

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You are correct, sir!
Posted by The Mayor on 04-Feb-2005 18:02:04 (#12041)

I stand corrected...

But "Be still and wait" is still just as good a cliche for this. If not half-as-profound, it is doubly-as-maniacal.

--Mayor

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Discussion
Posted by Titaniumman on 04-Feb-2005 18:39:50 (#12042)

Zenfighter and ET Fan started with fairly polarly opposed opinions on this. It is good to see that the two are debating in a non-confrontational manner, but using mathematics instead. ETF has stated that he now has all the pieces to solve the puzzle, and plans to solve it by early morning. He has challenged Zenfighter to submit his solution.

I just wish McDowell himself would comment.

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Or Michael Dalton! (or Megala Don, etc.)
Posted by zengrifter on 04-Feb-2005 19:37:03 (#12043)

TitaniumMan writes -
"I just wish McDowell himself would comment."

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Michael Dalton's response *LINK* *PIC*
Posted by Norm Wattenberger on 09-Feb-2005 08:20:45 (#12069)

As you requested, see http://www.bjrnet.com/board/wwbjn1/index.cgi?read=6489

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ET Fan has not read the book *NM* *LINK* *PIC*
Posted by Norm Wattenberger on 04-Feb-2005 15:59:26 (#12039)

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This is my final take on this, Mayor
Posted by Zenfighter on 13-Feb-2005 05:06:43 (#12102)

Below you have my final take on this controversy, posted at Dalton’s site.
I firmly believe in the exactitude of the calculations. Or at least, accept it as my very best. I simple can’t do it any better.

Sincerely

Zenfighter

<a href="http://www.bjrnet.com/board/wwbjn1/index.cgi?read=6502">My final take on this controversy<a/>

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Thank you
Posted by The Mayor on 13-Feb-2005 09:37:07 (#12104)

Thanks you for your excellent work helping to resolve these issues,

--Mayor

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Handle Change from "Radar"
Posted by Praying Mantis on 05-Feb-2005 14:15:55 (#12044)

Since BJFOnline is back up, Radar O'Reilly has begun posting again.

Although I have been using the nickname of Radar since the M.A.S.H. TV series came out...(it was given to me by my superior in the military) I continued using it as a handle, since Radar O'Reilly did not post anywhere.

Out of respect to Radar O'Reilly, and to avoid confusion to those that may not know differently, I decided it was best to change my handle.

Now on, my posts will come to you from "Praying Mantis".

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About getting barred from blackjack tables
Posted by MarkN on 06-Feb-2005 08:27:53 (#12045)

I should get to know this site last year!!. Just spent more than 10 hours reading this site (Mayor's Podium articles, Best Posts...)
I am new to card counting, play at a few casinos outside LV until now.
As I do not want to be barred (just in case!) for ever in those casinos, I wonder:
-As the casinos record everything (table games, exits, entrances, slots...) with their cameras, how long they keep those tapes? How can they record everything???
-After a player get barred from Blackjack (or restricted to betting the minimum only), can he (or she) be reinstated? Or casino will probably be inclined to barre him from the casino itself in the near future?
-When will a casino send your picture to other casinos?
I know I ask many questions, please feel free to reply to one or two questions. Thanks in advance!

---

reply
Posted by EYEinTHEsky on 06-Feb-2005 14:38:40 (#12046)

I am not 100% sure about other jurisdictions, but, in Atl. Cty. The tapes are only held for 7 days, unless they need to be reviewed, then they get held longer, or copied onto a composite, then the tape gets recycled. Most games have 24hr taping, at least an overhead view,,,but,,,at 10 minutes after the start of every shift, you have tape change....so,,,,thats one of the many times we wouldnt have coverage. Although, DVR has just been approved in NJ for testing at Bally's, so who knows whats next...

THE EYE DOESNT SEE EVERYTHING AT EVERY TIME........
TAKE IT FROM SOMEONE WHO KNOWS FIRST HAND.... ;)

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Some info to help you
Posted by TMC on 06-Feb-2005 15:44:42 (#12047)

Being a floor supervisor, I know that when we back off a player, we take his picture and send him on his way. We will not ban a person unless they win big and are obviously counting the cards. Once backed off, you can easily come back another day and try again on a differant shift. We have hundreds of photos, so remembering one face is tough. Surveillance is usually the department that spots someone who has previously been backed off. Disguising your identity is your best bet, grow a beard, wear a hat or what not. If your winning big, hiding your chips is a good idea, because when you have a lot of chips in front of you, we start to watch if your counting, but what most good floormen do is keep track of the money in the rack so its sometimes not effective. I don't know how long the tapes are kept, but it doesn't matter because they won't review the tapes unless they suspect a criminal act and counting is legal. This is how it is where I work, other places may be differant, but all similar. We have one or two people at a time watching the camaras in the entire casino, so your chances are good of not being spoted right away unless the floorman is paying attention. When I suspect somebody is counting, I call "the eye" and tell them to run a skill sheet on the player to see if they really are counting. They then call back and give me their opinion and we deal with it accordingly. We have made deals with quite a few counters so that they can continue playing at our casino, such as limiting their max bet or max spread. They can still make a small amount of money and it doesn't hurt the casino much so we let it go, as long as we like the person. Hope that helped!

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tmc ya do not sound like a floor person
Posted by eyesfor21 on 07-Feb-2005 12:11:33 (#12052)

ya sound like a typical player..
Casinos throw out many players after they have played and now there
game, they many wait until you are possibly down though.
How many of us have got the boot and actually been down,I bet
you it many of us. I will not take odds on this because
I hate gambling.

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any good to bargan?
Posted by KennilworthKid on 07-Feb-2005 19:17:42 (#12055)

From what you said about limiting a persons bet spread or upper limit got me to wondering. When being backed off, is it any good to ask what conditions/limits the house will accept? If for example you told the pit boss you are staying at the casino's hotel, or your spouse/significant other enjoys playing slots/roulette/craps at the casino, would the casino likely strike a deal?

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Bargain
Posted by SonOfBeve (TMC) on 07-Feb-2005 20:57:54 (#12057)

I am gonna use this handle for now on because its my handle other places. If you really are staying at the casinos hotel, you can probably cut a deal. It all depends on the pit boss and whether or not he likes you or not. The casino shift manager during my shift is happy to allow counters to play as long as they obey the rules we set for them, but our graveyard manager wont let those same players even sit down. Its worth trying.

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Welcome EYE and TMC...
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Feb-2005 16:17:05 (#12054)

... I am glad to see more employees of the 'Evil Empire' participating and sharing with us here! zg

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Can the RMS running count be preserved by some shuffles?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 07-Feb-2005 02:12:42 (#12048)

If, at the end of the shuffle, there is a lot of variation between density of high and low cards in different parts of the shoe, you're going to get either a high RC or a low RC, and which one and where you get it are going to depend on the cut which is pretty much random. But if the high and low cards are evenly distributed the balanced RC isn't going to deviate far from 0 and you're going to have a "dead" shoe no matter where it is cut. No opportunity to either raise your bet or Wong out and this is a negative EV situation.

Now for certain shuffles that are actually used, could a low RMS RC have a higher than random probability of being carried over to the next shoe? I think it's possible that if the cards are handled the exact same way every shoe, that the count could go into a repeating pattern that it will take a while to get out of. So if (and only if) this is the case, it would make sense to switch tables if you get a shoe where the count never strays far from 0 because of a greater likelihood of the next shoe also being negative EV. This is a little different from regular shuffle tracking theory because I'm not thinking about trying to determine where the good/bad counts are, just if they are more or less likely to occur than at random. This will not require any extra work on the part of a counter other than just remembering to change tables.

Hope this all was clear. Does anyone know if this has been researched in the literature yet? Thanks.

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Harvey Cohen has discussed this question *LINK*
Posted by alienated on 07-Feb-2005 09:03:11 (#12050)

What you are contemplating is not inconceivable. Harvey Cohen has spent some time on this question and posted some of his findings at reg.gambling.blackjack. You might like to do a google search. Some key words might be 'peak', 'parent', 'child', and of course 'rec.gambling.blackjack', 'harvey' and 'cohen'. The link below is to a short post by Cohen that summarizes the basic idea. Apparently Doug Grant had previously suggested that the running count peak of child (new) shoes tends to be about 75% of parent (previous) shoes. Cohen disagreed with the 75% figure, but appeared to agree that the effect may be present in commonly used shuffles. He suggests that the running count peak of the child shoe will tend to be equal to the average running count peak plus one fifth of the difference between the parent shoe's peak and the average running count peak; i.e.

E(C) = x + 0.2(P - x)

where E(C) is the expected peak of the child shoe, x is the average peak of all shoes, and P is the peak of the parent shoe. Cohen offers an example where the average running count peak of all shoes is 15 and the parent shoe had a peak of 35, implying an expected peak for the child shoe of 15 + 0.2(35 - 15) = 19. Cohen notes that the strength of the relationship between the running count peaks of parent and child shoes will depend on the precise nature of the shuffle. Simulation would probably be required to determine if knowledge of the parent shoe's running count peak offered any additional information for the particular shuffle you happened to be facing.

---

---

Last advertisement, promise!
Posted by The Mayor on 07-Feb-2005 19:29:59 (#12056)

We are going to try being affiliates of some Inet casinos for a few months and see if it is worthwhile. This site runs on the good will of a few generous people (not me!) and I am trying to get some bucks into their pockets. They never asked, but when I offered to put up some ads to help them out, they didn't say "no."

Just join these casinos, take them for their bonuses, and leave! You'll support this site, get some extra bucks in your pocket, and have some fun.

Thanks

--Mayor

---

Newcomers be clear...
Posted by zengrifter on 07-Feb-2005 20:59:46 (#12058)

... on what Mr. Mayor has just advised - you can sign-up with these casinos and receive some sort of matching deposit - divide the total amount by 200 and play basic strategy until you have met the full-play requirement for withdrawl of winnings inclusive of the bonus$ - then quit. You will have a significant edge over them. zg

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Additional advice
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 08-Feb-2005 00:12:55 (#12060)

1) Read the fine print carefully on all bonus sites. Many sites these days have higher action requirements for BJ that can bring you into a negative EV situation. Some bonuses are also "sticky"- meaning they themselves cannot be withdrawn but they can be played and you can withdraw any winnings and these have to be rated differently. You'll also need to know the BJ game rules so you can calculate what your EV is with the bonus.

2) You'll want to leave your money in for at least a month before attempting to withdraw. The sites reserve the right to arbitrarily declare you a "bonus abuser" and not pay you. This is generally not worth their while or reputation for small hits but if you attract their attention they can make it difficult for you to get paid.

---

Rather than advertising "BJ-type" casinos...
Posted by zengrifter on 08-Feb-2005 13:32:45 (#12062)

... why not stick to online poker rooms and other more benign types of gaming sites? zg

---

giving it one more try,anyone have beyond counting for sale
Posted by redman on 07-Feb-2005 22:46:55 (#12059)

just checking, if anyone has a copy for sale.

thanks redman

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Beyond Counting
Posted by Sun Runner on 08-Feb-2005 13:31:51 (#12061)

Check with Bettie at advantageplayer.com.

Last I heard she had one on consignment. It won't be cheap.

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Original sales price
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 08-Feb-2005 16:17:16 (#12063)

How much did Beyond Counting sell for when it was first published? I have seen it sell on eBay for upwards of $130.

---

thanks Sun Runner, i`ll try your suggestion.
Posted by redman on 08-Feb-2005 16:31:43 (#12065)

as for the ? about original price, i think $20- $25.

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List price was $39.95. *NM*
Posted by Titaniumman on 08-Feb-2005 17:49:55 (#12067)

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How about a "loan?"
Posted by Sonny on 08-Feb-2005 17:18:27 (#12066)

I know a way for you to read it for free (certain restrictions apply). Email me at MoreTrinity@hotmail.com for more info.

-Sonny-

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thanks sonny, i`ll try that next time i`m in lv. *NM*
Posted by redman on 09-Feb-2005 23:10:12 (#12073)

---

Try What? *NM*
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 10-Feb-2005 10:54:21 (#12080)

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Ceasars 24/7
Posted by pooker101 on 08-Feb-2005 16:27:11 (#12064)

Was watching this last night on A&E

They had Regina Guzior on the program. I'm not going to say she was card counting. But there was a part of it where she said "theres only been 3 10's Dealt so far." This shows to me that if she wasnt counting she was coming damm close to it in tracking cards played. Now the funny thing was Ceasars was basically rolling out the red carpet for her. They wanted her in there casino. I suppose this is because the ammount they could lose would be small compared to the ammount of buisness that having her play in there casino would draw.
Why do casino's hate card counters so much there basically using practice and skill and the average card counter is not going to effect there bottom line anymore then say Regina would.

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Because many are ignorant.
Posted by Tom on 08-Feb-2005 19:56:18 (#12068)

You just expressed a good example of casino sweathogs.

Example: A ploppy is thinking about doubling down an 11 against dealers 6 and says "There's too many tens dealt this round,the next card is going to be small, so I dont want to double down." She gets dealt a 6 and pitboss now thinks this ploppy is a card counter....what a joke.

Thank god all casinos are not this sweaty.

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Got my Blackjack Zone book yesterday
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 09-Feb-2005 16:37:17 (#12071)

Signed and dated, the date happened to be my 40th birthday. Almst prophetic, being the first BJ book I've ever read.

Interesting book- ideal for lending to friends and family members to explain exactly what it is we do out there. The next thing I need is a book to explain why it isn't generally fun. When I have a losing session and I tell a non-counter about it, they always say "Well at least you had fun, right?" No, I didn't have fun. It's only marginally fun when I win and it's no fun at all when I lose. I get cursed at, smoked at, occasionally asked to leave the casino, excessively tired and sometimes driven to eat or drink too much, all the while watching a week's pay fly away in 5 minutes. I only do it for the money.

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Amazed
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 10-Feb-2005 10:30:36 (#12079)

Automatic,
I am amazed that The Blackjack Zone is the first blackjack book you have ever read. How did you learn counting without books? Was it solely the internet, or did you have a mentor of some sort? Just curious.

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Online & with software
Posted by Auotmatic Monkey on 10-Feb-2005 11:04:40 (#12081)

There are plenty of references online, just reading the articles here, BJMath, etc. have enough information, but the most valuable tool is the Qfit software. I spend many hours working on simulations and that way you can get a good theoretical idea of how it works. And the rest is just sit down at the table and white-knuckle it until you're good at something, find out exactly what your good at and what your not, and modify it from there. I'm fortunate to be able to learn things that way.

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Glad to hear it.
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 10-Feb-2005 18:20:05 (#12085)

I myself get all my specific info from the CVdata. Running the numbers is the best. The online articles are good as well. I suppose to each their own. I've put about 30 blackjack books under my belt. I don't use any for reference per se, I guess I just use them for inspiration when I am not on a trip. Unfortunately I am not able to play on a weekly basis so I fill in that spare time with reading about blackjack. I'm only able to do about 12 trips a year.

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Jean Scott's LVA column recommends YGH *LINK*
Posted by Barfarkel on 09-Feb-2005 23:03:34 (#12072)

Here's the link to Jean Scott's current Frugal Fridays column that she writes weekly on the Las Vegas Advisor site:

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The link has moved *LINK*
Posted by Barfarkel on 13-Feb-2005 12:30:17 (#12106)

The old link posted at the head of this thread now points to Jean's current column, and the You've Got Heat column is now archived here:

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Everyone should buy THe Blackjack Zone
Posted by Barfarkel on 09-Feb-2005 23:15:15 (#12074)

I just finished reading The Blackjack Zone and can highly recommend this book as an honest, realistic and easy-to-understand volume on what it takes to succeed in today's blackjack environment.

Eliot Jacobson puts very neatly into words many things I've tried to explain to non-AP friends about card counting, only I didn't have the word skill to express to them what I was trying to get across. If only I'd had a copy of The Blackjack Zone to quote from, I'm sure they would have understood my points much better.

Mayor, thanks a bunch for mentioning my handle in the Acknowledgements page of your wonderful book, and double thanks for sending me a signed copy. Best of luck with the book - I know it'll sell a ton of copies.

Cheers,

Barfarkel

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mayor=any radio interviews
Posted by eyesfor21 on 10-Feb-2005 08:18:16 (#12076)

for the book and to hype the paranoia of casinos...
bad games etc.
or what is planned to take it to the masses.
good luck

your living in one of the best towns in the world...bad damm its
expensive...highest real estate in the world///
monticeito..CA.. where oprah has her 40 acre estate and all.

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True...
Posted by The Mayor on 10-Feb-2005 09:37:31 (#12078)

>your living in one of the best towns in the world...bad damm its
expensive...highest real estate in the world///

As for housing prices, what you say is true... incredible prices for housing here. The Median price in Santa Barbara for a single family house is about 1.1 Million right now. Talk about a bubble... but the weather couldn't be nicer year around. Average summer high/low is 75/55 and average winter high/low is 65/45. There are over 300 sunny days per year. There is the beach and moutains on either side. There is no pollution. There is a lot of culture and a great university. It is, quite simply, one of the nicest places on the planet to live.

As for book hype, I am doing a lot of it -- Barnes and Nobel is in the works (our people know their people kind-of-thing). I'm avoiding Amazon for right now (they don't pay the author enough per copy), but will go that route soon. I've sent out a couple of large press releases. There is a nice review ready to come out. I have deals with a couple of radio-show hosts for programs (but I have to put together something the talking-points). And I have a pile of things in progress.

BJZone is a book for the gambling masses, and that means it needs to get out there. But there couldn't be a better time to release it, with all the hysteria surrounding poker right now, that helps all the other games.

Best,

--Mayor

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Wow, thanks!
Posted by The Mayor on 10-Feb-2005 08:43:14 (#12077)

Thanks for your kind words, Barfy!

As for radio interviews, yes some things are in the works. I'll let you know time/place when it happens.

--Mayor

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got mine as a gift
Posted by Victoria on 10-Feb-2005 15:20:25 (#12083)

Got BJZone as a gift from the uncle who originally taught me how to count.
The book is perfect for both the new counter and the new player who might never count.
One part of the book I have not heard any comments on is the section where Mrs Mayor has something to say about being the significant other of an advantage player. My husband, a non player, read it and said he could of written it as they have similarities in situation. Something I believe is very important and left out in other books but a real part of our lives.
So, not to short change the Mayor, but if no one else has, I would like to compliment his significant other on her contribution.

Victoria

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"Everyone?" Even advanced players?? *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 11-Feb-2005 11:07:41 (#12086)

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Especially!
Posted by The Mayor on 11-Feb-2005 12:29:05 (#12087)

Advanced players should own *every* book 8-)

Yeah, well... it's worth a try...

--Mayor

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I agree with MAyor
Posted by Garo on 12-Feb-2005 09:36:07 (#12091)

His book will help advanced players because it takes a different look at what card counting is, and anyone can only be helped by looking at blackjack differently. Also there is a chapter on being the spouse of a card counter that I appreciated.

---

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just looking in.
Posted by Hood on 10-Feb-2005 13:08:56 (#12082)

Hi all

I'm a long time reader of the board (first time poster) and the website i gotta say it is one of the best bj sites on the net today.

A little about me. Been learning to count for sometime now. I use kiss lll with about 12 indicies but will be expanding to a few more, i know that doesn't sound like many but unfortunatley game rules over here hold me back from alot of indicies. I'm not ready for casino play for various reasons bankroll requirments being one of them. At the moment im practicing with CV and reading everything i can get my hands on.
I even bought your book Elliot and was happily suprised to get a signed and numbered copy which i really wasn't expecting especially since i didn't order from your site and i don't live in the U.S. Gotta say i liked it. The writing flowed well and your knowledge came across as being easy to understand. I found i could relate somethings in my life to blackjack which i never had the forsight to see before. It was kinda like the blackjack fog cleared a little in my head once i had done reading it. That very night i took a little of what you had said in the book and put it into action (basically found a hole and exploited it) though what i was exploiting had nothing to do with a casino but it did save me money :)

Question - Have any of you read blackjack bluebook 2? Any thoughts on it?

Anyway i will start posting more often and i'll try to help out where i can.

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Welcome
Posted by The Mayor on 11-Feb-2005 12:30:16 (#12088)

Welcome, I'm glad you decided to post.

Sorry, but I don't know anything about the question you asked.

--Mayor

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Renzy's Blue Book is solid. *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 12-Feb-2005 17:08:42 (#12098)

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Casinos using RFID chips article posted at ZenZone *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 10-Feb-2005 17:26:20 (#12084)

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Several new gambling-related arcticles are now posted at ZenZone *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 11-Feb-2005 13:16:05 (#12089)

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repost: losing 10 big units in a night
Posted by badnight on 12-Feb-2005 12:17:25 (#12094)

How common is it to lose 10 times you maximum bet
in a single night, playing a 10x spread?

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It Happens
Posted by SammyBoy on 12-Feb-2005 16:42:51 (#12095)

More than we like.

---

very common... slightly less common than...
Posted by zengrifter on 12-Feb-2005 17:06:47 (#12097)

... winning 10x your max bet in a similar span of time. zg

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In My Last 200 Sessions...
Posted by Dog Hand on 13-Feb-2005 14:33:37 (#12107)

badnight,

In my last 200 sessions, I've had two in which I lost more than $1000.

However, echoing zengrifter's reply, I've also had seven in which I've won more than $1000, with the high being more than $2000.

I realize this doesn't answer your question precisely, since in these 200 sessions I've used various maximum bets, from a low of $5 (very short session, playing a "bet $5, win $7" coupon) to a high of over $300 (spread over multiple hands). But it does give some indication of the typical swings seen by AP's.

Dog Hand

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losing 10 big bets
Posted by Charlie Chang on 13-Feb-2005 23:56:33 (#12111)

Subject: In response to the 10 big bet post.

In 200 sessions I've done it 8 times!!
Around 4% of the time. Is this normal??
I spread $10 to $100. Usually happens with DAS rules.
Split 3 times and have to double all three hands on a big
bet and lose all!
regards
Charlie Chang

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The Grifter in Action!
Posted by SammyBoy on 12-Feb-2005 16:52:07 (#12096)

I finally had the pleasure of meeting ZenGrifter and Phantom007 on my most recent trip to Vegas. It was awesome watching the Grifter split 10's at the table multiple times. Phantom was a little under the weather so I didn't get to play with him but we had a nice visit. I was backed off at one particular joint, but I think it was a good learning experience. With the Grifters help I was able to improve my cover. Overall the trip was a loser, about 40 units, but I was down about 120 the first night. I just could not get the cards and it would have been worse had it not been for a particular side bet that the Grifter helped me with. It was truly and honor to watch ZG in action, I hope to do it again soon!

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Saw G in Action
Posted by Charlie Chang on 14-Feb-2005 00:02:10 (#12112)

You lost 120 units in your first night.

I lost 80 in my first night of a trip.
Its tuff, but we all have to suffer thru it.
I know another CC who lost 200 units in his first night
of a trip. Took two months to recover.
He was 'wonging' around 1/4 of the time!!
regards
Charlie Chang

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It wasn't my "first night," but the punchline is that...
Posted by zengrifter on 14-Feb-2005 15:19:25 (#12116)

... I wasn't counting, I was doing something much stronger! zg

---------------------
"You lost 120 units in your first night."

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Oh No! ZG played the Harvey Method, and now is posting same on a Public Board!!! *NM*
Posted by phantom007 on 14-Feb-2005 21:34:52 (#12120)

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After Crunching The Numbers Again
Posted by SammyBoy on 15-Feb-2005 09:38:04 (#12123)

I actually lost about 20 units total. I had included a sports bet that I lost in my BJ records as well as my sports bet records. So the first night I was down 100 units not 120, I caught the mistake last night when I was updating my records.

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The Grifter is a Zen Master
Posted by ShoelessMoe on 08-Mar-2005 01:20:17 (#12351)

Seeing him at another table for the first time in years, I could hardly contain my amazement. Once I caught some of his act, I could barely stop from laughing out loud. Of course, he kept his cool the whole time.

It is wonderful to see him at work again. Long may the master live and prosper.

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Trip Report LV 2/5-2/7
Posted by Virgin Counter on 12-Feb-2005 19:28:42 (#12099)

Was in LV for SB weekend. Stayed downtown. Played at EC, Plaza, and LVC. This was my first time counting in LV. I used KO. Here's a brief report:

El Cortez: Single deck. Spread was 5-25 but a few times jumped up to 35-40. Any ramp up seems to draw the check play cry from the dealers. Had the discard tray counted one time on a massive plus count with paint all over the board. Lots of dirty looks from the PB's but no ejections. Most dealers barely spoke English and made plenty of mistakes. I was paid one time on a 4 card 16 v. a dealer 17. The PB's belittle and humiliate the dealers on a regular basis which makes for some interesting entertainment.

Plaza: Played the double deck. Good penetration and good rules. Ramp was 5-25 for the most part and never any problems. Jumped up to $40 a few times with no problems.

LVC: If you can get a table with 4 or less players it will work. The problem is that they will only give one deal with 5 or more players. Pretty decent single and double deck if you can stay at around 4 or less players.

Overall the trip was a success and I was pleased with my ability to keep track of everything despite the usual distractions. I probably need to work on sticking to my 1-5 spread instead of getting greedy and ramping up.

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Suggestions
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 13-Feb-2005 03:35:36 (#12101)

Hi there, thanks for sharing your results.

A couple of things, on the DD you might want to spread more than 1-5. 1-8 is what most people use. Also, on games like SD you are right that the biggest challenge is going to be finding a table uncrowded enough to let you get a few rounds in. SD is something I wouldn't even attempt on Super Bowl weekend. But don't worry about limiting your spread. If you think you can get away with it (and knowing when you can takes an awful lot of experience, a lot more than I have), why not spread more? You spread more by lowering your minimum bet, it'll help rather than hurt your bankroll.

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I also saw...
Posted by SammyBoy on 14-Feb-2005 13:30:28 (#12115)

many dealer mistakes downtown. One dealer was so confused about how to pay one of my sidebets that she forgot to take my losing $80 BJ bet. Another one forgot to offer insurance and when I protested she just pushed my $100 bet that should have lost to her BJ, the count was too low to take insurance anyway. The amount of money the casinos downtown are losing to dealer errors cannot be worth what they are saving by hiring these poorly trained dealers. I was also surprised at how long it would take the dealers to add up the cards both on the strip and downtown. I see much better dealers in Louisiana and Mississippi on average.

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Suggestion
Posted by Hal Jordan on 14-Feb-2005 18:05:40 (#12117)

Be careful about the amount of players that you will play with at a game. The SD at LVC is not really worth playing if you have to be the third player or greater desirability levels gets quite abysmal). The challenge with SD is finding a table where you can play for a decent amount of time without Ploppies.

HJ

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LV and others that play for a living
Posted by airasia on 13-Feb-2005 01:55:58 (#12100)

A few questions:

How much do you win per hour? And by betting how much?

Do you use any strategies other than Hi-Lo and strategy adjustments for Hi-Lo?

How much of a bankroll should or did you start with?

I'm making all these posts to those making a living because I'm beginning to seriously consider doing it. Even though in previous posts, people say that it's tough, I think I'm willing to go through the ups and downs just to have the luxury of independence.

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for a living
Posted by eyesfor21 on 13-Feb-2005 15:04:15 (#12108)

-win per hr depends on too many factors..
-bk some days its larger than others,and are top
bet is a % of the bk.
-it may be better to work at something other than blackjack
and then have a larger sum of money first..
-the game can be brutal,especially when the dealer is not busting
and making hand after hand,and you want to win..you will
learn there is so much more to the game than the count.When
this happens what do you do,that is the question...the answer is
not adressed in books.We all do not believe in myths..but the variance
happens as are edge is not too big at all.Team mit had a month where
they got creamed.
Yes, you better learn a lot more than the basic counting disciplines.
how about perfect bjack strategy..which involves memorizing every
single card and has its own complete indices..Very difficult to learn
but a lot more powerful.,,,once again few discuss this method in books.

Its up to you..

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Newbie info.
Posted by Charlie Chang on 13-Feb-2005 23:50:42 (#12110)

Bankroll,
you should have at least 1,000 times your unit of choice.

In other words if you want to make $USD10. your unit then
you need 10 times 1,000 equals USD.10k. This is somewhat
conservative but you need lots of money to put up with the
ups and downs of this game.
regards
Charlie Chang

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On Independence
Posted by Hal Jordan on 14-Feb-2005 18:18:09 (#12118)

Make sure to really look over all of the facts before you quit your day job.

One aspect new players often overlook is the dependence that AP's have on the casino industry. Games dry up, players migrate. A true professional that is grinding out a living does not have the freedom that you might think. They need to play the shifts, at the locations, that offer the greatest advantage. This may mean waking up to begin work at 3AM and having dinner at 3PM. The beginning stages are not Ian Anderson-like days, filled with swimming, fruit, and private tables. If one is ever to reach a level of true independence, it must come at the end of many sittings at such classy establishments as the El Cortez or Western.

I like Schlesinger's prose on the symbiotic relationship that an AP must have with the casino. When looking at it in this manner, although the obligations are different, it is difficult to discern whether or not more freedom is truly what is achieved by being a professional player.

HJ

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Well said
Posted by Sonny on 15-Feb-2005 09:34:20 (#12122)

> A true professional that is grinding out a living does not have the freedom
> that you might think. They need to play the shifts, at the locations, that
> offer the greatest advantage.

Excellent points. Don't forget about the fact that you will probably have to travel quite a bit. As the games dry up you will have to know where to look next, and don't expect other APs to tell you where the next big score is. The next game might be across the country or across the world. Sometimes the good games are gone by the time you get there.

It takes a lot more than learning how to count and moving to Las Vegas...just ask anyone in Henderson.

-Sonny-

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Are you sure?
Posted by Sonny on 15-Feb-2005 10:18:53 (#12124)

> How much do you win per hour? And by betting how much?
>
> Do you use any strategies other than Hi-Lo and strategy adjustments
> for Hi-Lo?
>
> How much of a bankroll should or did you start with?

No offense, but if you don’t know the answers to these questions you are not ready to play full time. You will need at least another year of studying and practice before you should consider playing seriously. Keep reading these posts and asking questions, and check out other websites like bjmath.com and qfit.com. And of course, you will have to READ, READ, READ! Then read some more!

> I'm making all these posts to those making a living because I'm beginning to
> seriously consider doing it. Even though in previous posts, people say that
> it's tough, I think I'm willing to go through the ups and downs just to have
> the luxury of independence.

Are you sure? I don’t play full time (and probably couldn’t), but maybe I can share a few quotes from the highlights of my career with you:

“I’ve played for 50 hours and haven’t won any money, but all the second-hand smoke really makes it worthwhile.”

“I lost a lot of money last month. If I play 108 more hours I can expect to get back to where I was at the beginning of the year, but that’ll take the rest of the year. Oh well, maybe I’ll win next year.”

After several big winning sessions - “I played for a whole hour and only won 2 units?! This stinks! I need a bigger EV.”

After several losing sessions – “Hooray, I won 2 units! I need a bigger EV.”

“It is 5:00 am and I’ve been walking around Downtown for 2 hours without finding a single playable game. It must be better to play a bad game with a tiny EV than waste my time walking around…” – Dangerous thinking!!!!!!

Driving home from Vegas:

Me: “Fifteen hours of blackjack and I still lost 80 units.”
Wife: “But the food was fantastic, and how about that pool!”
Me: “What pool?”

You’ve got a long way to go but you are on the right track. We look forward to hearing from you more very soon.

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i know the general answers, but
Posted by airasia on 17-Feb-2005 00:16:52 (#12165)

I just wanted to hear from the real people that actually do it. I've read Professional Blackjack and about win rates and bankroll and things like that, but I want to know if everything he says in the book is exactly true and/or needed to make a living by finding out what the players have to say about their own experiences. I'm not exactly asking for technical answers like I don't need to know that if you bet 100 dollars on average you'll win 20 dollars per hour, etc. Also, having to travel and move around isn't that discouraging...

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Check these out
Posted by Sonny on 17-Feb-2005 10:37:27 (#12170)

> I've read Professional Blackjack and about win rates and bankroll and things
> like that, but I want to know if everything he says in the book is exactly
> true and/or needed to make a living by finding out what the players have to
> say about their own experiences.

I would suggest that you read "Las Vegas Blackjack Diary" by Stuart Perry. It will give you a very good idea of what it is like to scout casinos and play full time. Also, "Blackjack Autumn" by Barry Meadows is a good read. It is a little more entertaining in my opinion, but Blackjack Diary is more realistic. It will give you a good idea of what it is like trying to grind out a living in Las Vegas.

-Sonny-

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It's not easy
Posted by LVBear584 on 17-Feb-2005 12:39:25 (#12173)

You will need to branch out to other forms of advantage play besides blackjack. There are few professional players nowadays who just count cards at blackjack. Most have other skills they put to use in casinos. Casinos contain other advantage situations, none of which will be discussed publicly on a message board, because they are too fragile. Remember that casino personnel read these boards, too. Educating one's opponents is not a good idea.

You stated that you are very young. Youthful appearance can work against you if you frequently get hassled for ID to prove you’re of legal age. Also, if you look as young as you are, betting reasonable amounts of money will look unusual to pit personnel, again inviting unwanted scrutiny.

I wouldn’t recommend playing full time until you have some casino experience. You may find you don’t like it, or can’t deal with the constant hassles from casino personnel.
My suggestion is to continue your education, and see if other life opportunities interest you. Build a bankroll through normal employment, and learn about casino advantage play part-time. Once you’ve played part-time for at least a year and have amassed a five-figure bankroll as a bare-bones minimum, you can start thinking about playing full time. With a small bankroll, you will need to grind coupons, exploit promotions, drawings, tournaments, etc., milk low-level comps (that’s all the comps you’ll get), put in a lot of hours, and keep your personal living expenses at an absolute minimum. When grinding at low levels, you must be careful not to let expenses eat you up. You cannot afford valet parking. You cannot afford to tip. Save, save, save; scrounge, scrounge, and scrounge. Pick up and use coupons others have thrown on the floor. Do not pass up anything of value, regardless of how small it is. Get your friends and neighbors to hand over whatever casino mail offers they won’t use.

If I had it to do over again, I would not have considered playing full-time until my bankroll reached at least $50,000, which is still small compared to the bankrolls of most full-time players. Though I am well past that level now, when I started full-time play, my bankroll was a fraction of its current level. And I have the benefit of having a spouse with a good income. Without that second income, solo advantage play on a tiny bankroll is tough. If you want to do it bad enough, it can be done. But it is not easy, and it is even harder if you plan to use only blackjack card counting as your game. Plenty of blackjack opportunities still exist, but they are getting harder and harder to find, especially at low stakes.

I hope this helps. Actually, I hope I’ve talked you out of it. Good luck whatever you decide.

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Best Post Nomination
Posted by Rob Vega on 17-Feb-2005 14:45:20 (#12176)

airasia,

I believe what LVBear just told you is better advice than you can find in a book. I would nominate is as a Best Post. I caught the bug was I was your (under)age and in very similar circumstances. I could dream of nothing better than to be a professional card counter. That was fifteen years ago, and I am still not a full-time card counter.

1. You may be thinking "I'll amass a couple grand and take a shot." No, no, no. You can't cover expenses betting red, and what's the point? Get a real career, gravitate west to Nevada or California, save up a real bankroll (and I'd say 10K isn't enough for the solo, full-time, non-married counter), play part-time for a long time (where you can cherry pick your games!). The question is, why shoot yourself in the foot? Make every decision from a situation of power and confidence.

2. It ain't all that great. While the dream of card counting is intoxicating, the reality isn't all that. Smoky, clanging, casinos at 5am, playing the same pre-determined strategy over and over again for years, with no marketable job skills if you want to move on? Not for everyone.

3. LVBear is dead-on about diversifying. In my head I refer to each of my skills as 'horses'. I can ride three or four horses right now and am working on a fifth. Moreover, my straight career is tailor-made for consulting, which may be considered another horse. Having multiple horses means I always have a fallback if counting goes very sour. It also means I never have to spin my wheels playing some low EV junk game.

Approach it carefully, like you're building a business, and never burn a bridge. There are tales of those who learned to count, took a flyer and never looked back. But like the busted sap who *lost* all his money betting red, you don't hear much about the counters who were inadequately prepared.

- Rob Vega

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Bankroll
Posted by Charlie Chang on 20-Feb-2005 00:25:50 (#12193)

Yes, Bear
A bank of 50k is just right for someone starting.
It can cover one year expenses with around a green unit.
Charlie Chang

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And you're right
Posted by airasia on 17-Feb-2005 00:33:57 (#12166)

I am not ready to play full time, first of all, I'm not old enough to play legally and do not know exactly which places to start, second I'm still in college taking a year off, and third I do not have the bankroll yet, just starting to build it by working and playing some poker. I have the Hi-Lo count and strategy numbers almost mastered (all the important ones mastered) and I've been simulating a two-deck game at home, but youre absolutely right, I'm not ready to play full time by any means. It is one of my short term goals though for the next few years.

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Learn what it's like to win and lose first
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 18-Feb-2005 02:00:41 (#12179)

As a weekend player I can tell you that I would want to be very, very, very well capitalized before quitting my real job and playing full time. I'm sure you've studied the Kelly Criterion, does it seem overly cautious and pessimistic? Let me tell you something, the downswings can be so bad that a person with normal psychology will suspect either cheating or the supernatural at work. How many times in a row can the dealer pull exactly the card he needs out of his ass? Answer: one more time. How many times in a row will you draw a 10 to a 12? One more time.

On the other hand, sometimes it will seem like you just can't lose. You'll win for so long that you can't even remember losing. And then it will hit you.

There's no independence. The casino can jerk the rug out from under you any time they want to. You'll also be exposed to every kind of bad habit, vice, and destructive personality in the book. Even as a part timer I'm utterly disgusted sometimes.

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A review of The Blackjack Zone at rgtonline.com
Posted by The Mayor on 13-Feb-2005 10:18:57 (#12105)

...This is a writer isn't afraid to use his past experiences and errors to explain how you can avoid them and learn from them without making them yourself. Two interesting chapters focus on the new 6-to-5 payoffs and why he says it is "an unfair trade practice," and one written by "LVB" (Las Vegas Bear) who describes his own experiences playing in Las Vegas and elsewhere in Nevada.
This is an intelligent foray into the world of serious players who believe they can beat the game and have done it.

Full review at:

http://www.rgtonline.com/Article.cfm?ArticleId=54731&CategoryName=Gaming%20Strategies

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what system to use with shuffle tracking cookbook?
Posted by mark on 13-Feb-2005 20:03:10 (#12109)

What system or systems would you recommend with shuffle tracking cookbook?

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Simplify
Posted by Zenfighter on 14-Feb-2005 06:23:20 (#12114)

I will use Snyder’s Hilo-Lite and/or Hilo with comp-dependent basic strategy. That is: Try to simplify ad maximum your point count system and the employment of indices, while attempting something as difficult as ST. Acting the opposite way is a roller coaster, for sure.

Sincerely

Zenfighter

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Hi-Low
Posted by mark on 14-Feb-2005 18:30:33 (#12119)

How about TKO?
It has a slightly higher BC and easier
to use isn't it?

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No. A balanced count is better for your task. *NM*
Posted by Zenfighter on 15-Feb-2005 13:24:33 (#12126)

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Online Gambling Literature
Posted by GayLord on 14-Feb-2005 03:18:41 (#12113)

Hello, I was just wondering what is considered to be the best book on winning against online casinos (bonus hustling)? I'm considering Barry Meadow's, "Crushing the Internet Casino's" (I see two versions of this book: one has a cheap looking cover with the title, and the other has an illustration of a man looking at a computer) but I'd like to ask the pro's first before making any decisions. Thanks for your time guys!

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My copy..
Posted by suicyco maniac on 15-Feb-2005 21:53:24 (#12136)

...is the "cheap" looking cover you describe. The only time I have seen the picture of the guy looking at the computer is on the issue of Blackjack Forum where they posted a chapter or so of Barry's work. SM

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A New Victim of 6:5 BJ.....DECENT GAMES!
Posted by phantom007 on 14-Feb-2005 22:00:21 (#12121)

During recent LV trip to a "store" that I have been patronizing for about 20 years, and which about a year ago, actually replaced a "bank of slots" with a bunch of 6:5 Tables. Previously, even with said 6:5 tables, said store had LOTS of GOOD DD and 6D games.

THIS YEAR, closed most of their previously decent DD and 6D games in favour of their 6:5.

While I know that I can beat 6:5, IF ALLOWED THE SPREAD!, I chose not to play same, since I would probably NOT be allowed the spread.

Anyhow, ended up at one of their few decent DD games, won 40 units, and got the "WE DON'T WANT YOUR ACTION ANYMORE!"

Wonder if I go back there and pound their 6:5 game, if I will get the same treatment?

phantom007.

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DD games there are counter traps now? *NM*
Posted by KennilworthKid on 15-Feb-2005 11:33:52 (#12125)

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system indices for RPC?
Posted by mark on 15-Feb-2005 17:20:50 (#12127)

Could someone give me the multiple deck system
Indices for RPC. I've seen the indices for
a single deck game.
thanks for your help.

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Basic indices for 6D game
Posted by The Mayor on 15-Feb-2005 22:07:51 (#12137)

For 6D, S17, DOA, no-LSR, no RSA, I got the following using PBJA:

16 vs. T ... 1
15 vs. T ... 9
13 vs. 2 ... -1
13 vs. 3 ... -4
12 vs. 2 ... 6
12 vs. 3 ... 3
12 vs. 4 ... 0
12 vs. 5 ... -3
12 vs. 6 ... -2
11 vs. A ... 3
10 vs. T ... 7
10 vs. A ... 7
9 vs. 2 ... 2
9 vs. 3 ... -1
9 vs. 7 ... 7
8 vs. 5 ... 7
8 vs. 6 ... 4
TT vs. 4 ... 12
TT vs. 5 ... 10
TT vs. 6 ... 9
INSURE ... 5

If you want more, time to buy some software 8-)

--Mayor

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Review of "The Blackjack Zone" at www.bjinsider.com
Posted by The Mayor on 15-Feb-2005 19:16:36 (#12129)

Review of: The Blackjack Zone: Lessons in Winning at Blackjack and Life
Book Author: Eliot Jacobson
Review written by: Noah Isaacs, NoahIsaacs@hotmail.com
Date: 01/26/2005

Is there really anything new to be said about blackjack? The answer is yes. The game is constantly changing and the old worn blackjack manuals haven’t kept up with the times. With shuffle machines, weird variations in the rules (like a payoff of 6-to-5 for a blackjack, what a rip-off!), and the new adult Vegas attitude, the games are getting harder to beat all the time. Add to this the onslaught of the "…stays in Vegas" marketing campaign and casinos are separating players from their money with more efficiency than McDonald’s selling Big Macs. It’s way past time for someone to come to the defense of the players. The first shot has been fired by Eliot Jacobson in his new book, "The Blackjack Zone."

The complete review can be found here...

http://www.bjinsider.com/newsletter_61_zone.shtml

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