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Threads 1441 to 1470

Intro...
Posted by OnePitCritter on 12-Nov-2004 03:00:51 (#10833)

Hallo Mr. Mayor and everyone,

I am just your average enemy, an old Pit Critter (13+ years in Gaming)

I have enjoyed reading some of the posts here and thought I would give this community some of my random thoughts & favorite stories about advantage play.

I hope some of my personal observations will be helpful to this community.

" Why would I be helpful?" A legitiment question.

There may perhaps be no selfless acts? I enjoy my career. Without it I would have to get a real job to pay for the Ex-Wife's lipposuction!

I have been entertained by some of the posts/ideas pitched here. I have also been occasionaly dismayed. It is true in my humble opinion that I need you as much, if not more, than you need me. That being said, this is just a game to me. I got into this career field in the effort to avoid doing any real work!

Also Mind-Play, as an example, could obviously be the death of my part of the industry.

A little about me...

I work in a small Midwest Casino of no real consequence. I have worked in many different capacities of Gaming... Dealer, Floor, Pit, Management, even a stint in a Bingo Hall.

I do enjoy Advantage play, not to the extent of this forum. I do enjoy it non-the-less.

My posts may get a little long so...

I would enjoy any open discussion of my thoughts. If you view me as just a Crack-Pot... Welcome to the Internet! Please feel free to just ignore me.

I think I will try to Post a story each week.

Sincerly,

OnePitCritter

P.S. I am looking forward to the Mayor's new book.

P.P.S. Good God Mary Sue I sound Rediculously Arrowgant...Ah well...Post without thinking. Welcome to the Internet! ;O)

Welcome
Posted by Bubb Rubb on 12-Nov-2004 12:15:20 (#10837)

Hi, OnePitCritter, and welcome.

I am an average joe who is relatively new to card counting, just hoping to eke out a small edge over the house. I read the tales of some of the pro's on here and try to pick up hints to improve my play and also try and learn how to recognize other advantage plays. There are probably hundreds of people like me reading these and other forums, none of us sure whether we are good enough to get a long-term edge by counting. Sure, the simulations say we should, but playing on the computer and playing in real life are completely different.

So far I've been very successful, obviously due to positive fluctuation. But will I have the character to stick it out if I hit the other end of the bell curve? Or will I end up a disciple of John Patrick claiming that math doesn't work and looking for "the flaw"? (heaven forbid!)

You and other PC's are not my enemies. You've got a job to do and I recognize and respect that. I feel I have a responsibility to you and your colleagues to win as inconspicuously as possible, and never not too much at any one time. To make life pleasant for you and the dealers by smiling and laughing, telling jokes, getting along with the other players and, most importantly, never complaining when I lose. Occasionally I even split 10's with a negative count or make other "stupid" plays to drive away a ploppy who's annoying the dealer. I hope that in response the dealers and PC's will continue to let me play my game.

Once again, welcome to the board. I look forward to what you have to share with us.

Welcome PitCritter! *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 12-Nov-2004 13:20:34 (#10839)

Welcome!
Posted by SammyBoy on 12-Nov-2004 13:44:49 (#10840)

I'm looking forward to your stories as well as your perspective from the other side.

Welcome
Posted by The Mayor on 13-Nov-2004 09:54:32 (#10845)

We look forward to your contributions. You might like to read Cellini's materials here.

--Mayor

;O) Celinni's Corner
Posted by OnePitCritter on 13-Nov-2004 13:42:08 (#10846)

Thank You All for the Hallo's...

Cellini's Corner may be some of the most Hilarious stuff I have read on the net!

Not that they are not true! Right on the mark at some of the properties I know. I have not read all of them yet but I especially loved the Top tips for handling Floor People! ;O)

Telling the Floor some Horribly Bad Story about the feul milage in your 1977 LTD is an awesome tactic to keep them away.

If I could be so bold as to add a personal observation...

Has anyone ever met a nice person that you just can't stand to communicate with? People talk at a certain pace. If it is just a bit too slow or fast it will drive you insane!

I had a regular Player years ago, (Helga, May god rest her soul.) actual First Generation American. She would drive me to tears!

I was a Dealer then, I remember begging my Floor when she would come in to let me deal on any other table or game.

Begging.

Pleading.

Nashing of teeth.

I may have actually came down with an instant 24 hour flesh eating virus once and had to leave for home!

Helga was a player of substance, the widow of a local bank president. She was ready to play... No that is not right ...

She was ready to spend... Stll not right...

She would sit at a table with me for what seemed like an eternity and tell me stories about her Car, Kids, Grand-Kids, Bursitus, Collitus, Incesulitus, (Helga had all of the ...ituses)

It was not the stories that drove me insane. As a dealer I always knew the program. I was attached to my table until Judgement Day or until my Floor would send in sweet relief so I could go Smoke. Anyway I digress.

It was the pace of her speech.

It...
was...
just...
a...
little...
too..
slow...

I loved Helga by the way. She was a sweet lady with an amazing life.

I...
just...
could...
not...
handle...
the...
pace...
of...
her...
speech...

Try this with your signifigant other. Now buy them flowers or something for causing severe mental anguish to check my point.

Now picture this with the Floor who is too busy and can easily escape to the other end of the Pit. Unfortunately you will also have to torture your Dealer with the same speech patterns to cover. It is Okay, for a couple of small tokes they will not mind being collateral damage in this little game.

Wait a second! What did I just type? I don't remember Helga ever losing. We would talk about it on break over our Camels and Marlboros. Was she covering for Advantage Play? Perhaps I will now think of her as doing so.

"God Speed Dear."

But If I ever accidently make it inside the Pearly Gates and see her coming my way I am going to...

Sincerely,

OnePitCritter

"O' Cellini, Where Art Thou?" *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 14-Nov-2004 16:47:18 (#10855)

Question for OPC
Posted by suicyco maniac on 13-Nov-2004 20:47:46 (#10848)

What would you say is the first thing that tips you off to most counters? SM

Right to the Heart of the matter... ;O)
Posted by OnePitCritter on 14-Nov-2004 05:22:03 (#10850)

Hallo Suicyo Maniac,

I just got off of a 13+ Hour Shift, & was curious all day if anyone read or responded to my sordid little tale. ;O)

You must win some kind of prize for being the first to get right to the crux of our new
"?Relationship?" ;O)

Suicyo Maniac asked:
(What would you say is the first thing that tips you off to most counters? SM)

I'm sorry but I will have to think on that a bit.

It is late and I need some rest...

My first thought is that it is a Combination of Multiple Questions! Is that actually English? "A Combination of Multiple Questions." Ah well, I was never an English Major.

What I mean to say is the first alarm is not always an individual item. That is not to say that there aren't some quick alarms.

At any rate I must try to get some sleep. It was a long day... The Pit Blackjack hold was over 50% last night, Causing my Staff & I to have a long challenging evening. I believe that is called Varience correct? We just call it a long evening of no fun. Cranky players (losing), Cranky Dealers (No Tokes), & I am just trying to keep my customer service up to par under these difficult conditions.

"No Madamn I cannot comp you the night in our Players Suite."

"Yes, Believe it or not I do know you are in for a small Fortune."

"Yes, $145 is a ton of money. You say you didn't win a hand?"

"No, I am sorry you cannot view the video tape."

"Your second cousin's sister in-laws nephew is our new State District Representative!"

"Yes, I will give you my Supervisors extention number. No, I will not call her at home now."

Flash to:

"Dealer 3 said what to the player on Table 6 on short-stop position?"

Just continue that Ad Nasium.

At any rate, You have my Word of Honor I will think on your Question and try to answer as quickly and accurately as I can.

Sincerely,

OnePitCritter

P.S. Who knew message boards could be so Therapudic! ;O) I think I will sleep like a (insert favorite term).

"I think I will sleep like a ..." surveillance tech? ;-) *NM*
Posted by Dog Hand on 14-Nov-2004 20:36:10 (#10859)

Barrick's Enlightened Approach...
Posted by zengrifter on 12-Nov-2004 11:14:04 (#10834)

... reflects upon two execs - Plaza casino manager, Chris Nichols has attempted to run enlightened games in the past, understanding that less shuffling means more profits and better rules means higher player acceptance/competiveness AND variance - he was stymied in the past by old man Gaughn. The new multi-property GM is Tom Kaminski who came from TI 2 years ago to manage the LVClub casino, hence the improved games there initially.

These guys are sharp nonetheless and will pick you off given the opportunity. zg

PS - And the Mayor's correspondance, of course! *NM*
Posted by zengrifter on 12-Nov-2004 11:16:05 (#10835)

You too!
Posted by The Mayor on 12-Nov-2004 11:26:29 (#10836)

Please send your thoughts directly to Mr. Barrick:

Dave Barrick
4336 E Beck Ln
Phoenix , AZ 85032
Phone: 602-788-1931
Fax..: 602-788-0902
Email: dwb1946@aol.com

Thank him for understanding the importance of offering good games. (Don't mention advantage play, please!).

--Mayor

What was that, Max?
Posted by toddler on 13-Nov-2004 22:43:41 (#10849)

understanding that less shuffling means more profits and better rules means higher player acceptance/competiveness AND variance

If memory serves me correctly (which is always suspect on a Saturday evening), hasn't Max Rubin been saying this or something extremely similar for years? Perhaps someone *is* listening.

toddler

Right to the Heart of the Matter Part 2
Posted by OnePitCritter on 14-Nov-2004 13:46:13 (#10853)

Hallo and Good Morning Suicyco Maniac and everyone!

It is a Gorgeous Morning in Middle America! Coffee is Brewing, it is time to try to attack your Question.

Suicyco Maniac asked:
(What would you say is the first thing that tips you off to most counters? SM)

What I posted last night�

My first thought is that it is a Combination of Multiple Questions! Is that actually English? "A Combination of Multiple Questions." Ah well, I was never an English Major.

What I mean to say is the first alarm is not always an individual item. That is not to say that there aren't some quick alarms.

Now that I have caught up with the Sandman as well as Myself. ;O) A Combination of Multiple Questions Still does not sound like English! At any rate�

Cover your eyes Mr. Mayor for a moment. I think that from my end of the Pit catching counters is as much an Art as a Science.

A Loud Sigh comes from the Board. �This Guy is just another Nut-Job who doesn�t even understand what Advantage Play is!�

Please give me a moment to explain everyone. I will try to avoid this being a Voodoo Post.

I do not mean to say that Counting is not specific and that there aren�t specific items to this endeavor. We have some wonderful Extremely Anal people in the Surveillance Dept. who help me by accurately watching and quickly charting whatever I ask for. Their job is strictly Science.

The call comes down:

�Dealer 3 on Table 6 did not match his Toke at 11:47 chip for chip pursuant to Policy #34-B section 24 of page 36 in Blah�Blah��

� Yes, Thank You, I did know. I have been waiting for a fill of Silver for 30 Minutes. She is trying to conserve to be able to keep the Game going.�

�There is no policy to do that OnePitCritter I will have to write this in your Daily Log.�

�Yes, I know, My Daily Log. Thank You.�

Get the picture? Wonderful people, completely devoid of any passion and completely needed. Policy driven. And only Policy Driven.

My call up:

�I need a player rating� Pit 1-Table 6 -7th Position. (Don�t say Anchor or Third base by the way they will be lost or give you info on the wrong player.) Tee Hee I have a funny story about that happening. Maybe Later.
15 minutes later they give me a wealth of info.

� But why do I make the call up?� You Nearly Scream. Okay, enough fun for me. If I could be so Bold�

Your Post is why Dear.

Your Question is why.

In a really (to me anyway) funny story about Helga with many of my favorite Plot twists including death, You got right to the Heart of the Matter. I watch for that. Not a single post about funny, stupid, Wow, OnePitCritter are you a CrackPot. ;O)

I work with some amazing people. Smart, Funny, Oh my God can they be Funny. I also have many different personalities of employees. It is bizarre to me that �most� card counters cannot see the fun in gaming? If we cannot, If the game cannot, help you have a �Good time or just as important a Bad time� something is up.

Business.

Business is what is up.

They say that something like 75% of people dislike their jobs. I think that is because it is just about money. You and I both got into the "Casino Business" to avoid any real work. At one time you were a Ploppy just enjoying the �Fun.�

�So, proper Cover is the Key.� You think correct? Close, but generally not exactly possible for �most counters.� I wish I could cover all of this in one post but I am afraid it is not possible.

My hope here is to� I am not sure� Try to develop a rapport with a community that is�

I am sorry, work calls everyone. I hope it is a wonderful day for all.

Sincerely,

OnePitCritter

P.S. You missed the point of Helga. I caught her because her speech patterns were different with me than with my Dealers and the other players. Now do you see� Art not Science?

My question(s)...
Posted by The Mayor on 14-Nov-2004 16:03:02 (#10854)

Thanks for your great posts, OPC. The method you are describing goes under the heading "JDFR" (just doesn't feel right) -- which is the basic way security and survelliance should proceed. It is not ploppy voodoo applied to catching counters, it is the observation that the crowds usually behave in a set pattern, and anything outside the norm should be looked at more carefully.

There are a bunch of us that are beating the pants off of you in ways that you will never know (and we will never say here). We have been doing this for years. These are legal methods, and are being done right in front of you. It has been my experience that if it looks like counting, I get heat, but for these other methods, I get comps.

My question is, to what extent are you aware that this is going on, but don't know who to look for or how it is coming down? And, what more advanced methods have you come accross and dealt with? How do you look for those methods? Does your management just not believe these things happen, or does your management have too much ego to admit you are getting creamed sometimes?

There was a dealer that got very angry at me about half-a-year ago. He said "I don't know what you're doing or how you're doing it, but I don't like what's going on here." He came the closest.

Again, I am NOT talking about cheating.

Your writing is great, and your answers are right on target and fun to read. You are a very welcome guest and we look forward to what you have to share.

--Mayor

jdlr nt *NM*
Posted by gehrig on 14-Nov-2004 19:20:55 (#10856)

Wow!
Posted by OnePitCritter on 14-Nov-2004 20:06:10 (#10858)

Hallo again everyone,

Mr. Mayor writes:

(My question is, to what extent are you aware that this is going on, but don't know who to look for or how it is coming down? And, what more advanced methods have you come accross and dealt with? How do you look for those methods? Does your management just not believe these things happen, or does your management have too much ego to admit you are getting creamed sometimes? )

I am so pleased to find a place to discuss these topics.

I must be honest here. I am unprepared to cover these quickly and succintly. I was just going to write some of my favorite funny Casino stories. It really is just a game to me. Our relationship between Advantage players and Pit personale I mean.

Not that I am unwilling to try to be up to the task. I just think that I will need some time to process and formulate. I assure you I will try.

Thank you Mayor and everyone else for the challenge. I hope this will be fun as well as informative for both of us.

Sincerely Challenged, ;O)

OnePitCritter

Psychological Counselling Available at CC.com....
Posted by phantom007 on 15-Nov-2004 00:01:25 (#10860)

OPC....did you know that the Mayor is trained in Psychology, M.S. I believe, or is it pH.D.?

Anyhow, got a "BJB", i.e., Black-jack Boner, when I read your first post.

Have went "flaccid" reading the rest.

Several posters have asked simple and directed questions as regarding PC vs. AP's. Your response(s) have been both diversionary and self-centered.

YOU CERTAINLY COULD BE A VALUABLE ASSETT TO CC's!

The Mayor et.al. could help you with your problems!....providing said of course that same is given with understanding that advice is of a "general educational" nature, and not meant to be OPC-specific therapy (otherwise, major licensure/malpractice/etc. issues ensue). I often use CC.com to receive therapy, i.e., "Theraputic Writing", wherein I post my own life successes and failures, then sit back and watch 1/2 of all respondents not even read the Post before responding, 1/4th to offer advice/support, and the other 1/4th...TO

TURN WHAT I SAID SIDE-WAYS, and SHOVE IT UP MY A#S#S!

Anyhow, IMHO:

1. You HATE your job! You bust your Butt, rarely get thanked for same, but almost ALWAYS get SPANKED when things do not go right.

2. You LOVE your job! Friends, family, and Hell, even CC's respect your SUIT! You have POWER to GRANT Wishes...and the POWER to END same!

3. You have a LOVE/HATE relationship with CC's...CC's SCREW your EVIL employer (LOVE)...CC's SCREW YOU (HATE)...and either you are or are trying to become a CC...will you LOVE yourself...or HATE?

4. Helga?...Thanks for sharing. Obviously important to you. Did Helga Screw You?....It is apparent that Helga is a "Mother-Figure"...are you from Arkansas?
Revisit your relationship with your own Mother!

Otherwise, welcome to CC.com, i.e. "CRITTER COUNSELLING.com".

WE ARE HERE TO HELP!

phantom007.

correction
Posted by The Mayor on 15-Nov-2004 00:06:51 (#10861)

Although I think CritterCounseling.Com is great, you are going to have the honors. I don't have a degree in Psych (but my wife does).

Remember to blame it on his mother! 8-)

I too feel the tease of OPC's responses, but would rather be encouraging than harsh. After all, how many of his kind even get this far?

--Mayor

A thought? For The Mayor
Posted by OnePitCritter on 15-Nov-2004 11:31:35 (#10866)

Hallo Mayor,

I absolutely love it! "Remember to Blame it on His Mother." 8-)

Rolling on the floor, Smiling all the way.

On the other hand I do not want to upset the Community Apple cart as it were. Is it possible to move my posts to the Non-BJ Board? Do you think that would be helpful?

I hope my posts both entertain and create some thought in your members. But my fun could be misread as...Whatever. I am sure they will not be fun for all. Would that be a better Forum?

I do promise to try to be as honest as is possible from my position. Just like you said there are members that have been beating the pants off of us for years. With Ideas that they would never post on a public Message Board. It is the same in my side of the battle. Sometimes I will just be unable, or unwilling, to answer.

Truely Funny anyway. ;O)

Sincerely

OnePitCritter

This thread belongs here
Posted by The Mayor on 15-Nov-2004 11:45:31 (#10867)

Thanks for the idea to move this to nonBJ, but it is BJ -- very strongly so. If you want to talk about politics or weird modern physics, go to nonBJ, for anything that has even an outside chance of being meaningful to the advantage player, this is the place.

You are right that we want to take from you and not give back to you. There is no way we would tell you anything that would help you in your job, on the other hand, you could tell us quite a lot.

What's in it for you? It is the right thing to do. We are playing by the rules the casinos set in place, not breaking any laws, acting respectfully (for the most part), and are willing to not fight when you ask us to leave. How much nicer could we be? All we ask is that you give us a great game and leave us alone. Is that too much to ask?

Again, read Cellini's material. He is singular, a great man; but you may have elements of his perspective in yourself.

Looking forward to it...

--Mayor

player wins 80k
Posted by eyesfor21 on 15-Nov-2004 17:36:59 (#10870)

The guy started with dbl deck $800 buy in, a young punk who
got on a streak(no such thing as a streak well he was winning

almost every hand didn't even know basic-they the pit and the upstairs crew
were surrounding the poor guy like he was doing soemthing wrong.
The guy then moves to csm still heat still more wins then
moves to sf212 more wins more heat.. It was quite a sight.
I was going to lecture him on leaving but he was giving me hell
saying how I will never make large unless you bet big the whole thing,
never surrender blah blah etc.
well friends say he gave it all back the next day.
Its just sad that the pit was so worried that someone was taking
them when any normal person would know in seconds that the guy didn't
know a thing at all.

They thought he was cheating
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 15-Nov-2004 22:46:32 (#10872)

Especially in a pitch game. They must have figured he was more than lucky and winning too fast to be just an advantage player.

Re: Phantoom007
Posted by OnePitCritter on 15-Nov-2004 11:01:36 (#10865)

Hallo Phantom007, Mr. Mayor, and everyone,

Phantom007 writes:

Anyhow, IMHO:
1. You HATE your job! You bust your Butt, rarely get thanked for same, but almost ALWAYS get SPANKED when things do not go right.

2. You LOVE your job! Friends, family, and Hell, even CC's respect your SUIT! You have POWER to GRANT Wishes...and the POWER to END same!

3. You have a LOVE/HATE relationship with CC's...CC's SCREW your EVIL employer (LOVE)...CC's SCREW YOU (HATE)...and either you are or are trying to become a CC...will you LOVE yourself...or HATE?

Oh My God! I am Laughing my assets off. ;O) I hope that was as tongue in cheek as my posts have been!

Let me try to answer your concerns one at a time.

1.) I thought I was very up front with my first post. I was going to write some of my favorite Funny to Me stories. I also reiterated that in my earlier response to the Mayor�s Question(s) I do still hope there may be value? Maybe Not.

2.) Suicyco Maniac asked :

What tips you off to �most� card counters?

�Most� is what I felt was the key word. Maybe my two-part answer was too long and bizarre for some in this community. I thought my answer was right on the mark. Skip the story; Start at Business in part 2. As Mr. Mayor said JDFR (Just Doesn�t Feel Right)

3.) I am sorry but I LOVE my job! I am a work-a-holic, bust my Butt, and if I may blow my own horn a moment, yet again, I am very good at it. Thanks is never as often as I like, but I am sure my staff doesn't get as much from me as they should. Also Sorry, I have not been SPANKED for any reason at work and things do go wrong sometimes.

4.) I do LOVE my job. I hope that my friends, family, employees, and Hell even CC�s respect me not my clothing!

5.) I have a LOVE/HATE relationship with CC�s. SCREWING MY EMPLOYER. Sorry no Evil Empire here. My Employer has always treated me with Honor & Respect. CC�s SCREW ME? No, it is not my Money. Besides I love a challenge. At the very least it is nice to have some capable competition. Your community at large helps keep my job fun.;O)

6.) Helga, a real person. A real story. It was really fun.

7.) My Mother? Well, Dad did the disciplining growing up. I will ask them at lunch today about our relationship. ;O)

Sincerely LMAO,

OnePitCritter

Honor and Respect
Posted by Radar on 20-Nov-2004 11:11:26 (#10920)

"5.) I have a LOVE/HATE relationship with CC�s. SCREWING MY EMPLOYER. Sorry no Evil Empire here. My Employer has always treated me with Honor & Respect. CC�s SCREW ME? No, it is not my Money. Besides I love a challenge. At the very least it is nice to have some capable competition. Your community at large helps keep my job fun.;O)"

Perhaps your employer should treat CCs with respect and honor, as well. We play by YOUR rules, do not cheat, are not disruptive and generally, don't get greety. Oftentimes we lose...afterall, even the best players have negative flux.

In return we get "shuffled", "cheques play", stared down like we are a naked lady, and asked to leave because we happen to be knowledgeable and use our brains to play your game better than most.

On the other hand, if a ploppy don't know how to play, is loud and obnoxious or cussing out or throwing things at the dealer (as long as he's losing), or if they are wasted and throwing their money away, you will let them play for as long as they have a dollar left to put on the felt.

Maybe you get respect and honor from your employer, but it sure doesn't work that way for the player.

It is pure hypocracy, and even you should be able to understand that.

Mayor and the egotistics.
Posted by Tom on 15-Nov-2004 22:47:42 (#10873)

Just as casino critters may be on an ego trip,just as the AP may be on a ego trip and "in just"--why must thee, embrocate they, of our own illusions that are perpetuated out of an act of deception!?..and the commencing of suggestions of-ahem''(to whom it may concern)seeking the unordinary balance of gambling. Look that up in your Funk n' Wagnel OPC!

Sorry for the rambling,but if anybody decodes me message they may get the point.

Good night and good day,
Tom

OPC
Posted by SammyBoy on 15-Nov-2004 10:28:38 (#10863)

Your writing style and personality are very familiar. I hope you stick around.

Thanks SammyB. 8O) *NM*
Posted by OnePitCritter on 02-Dec-2004 22:49:50 (#11071)

OPC
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 16-Nov-2004 17:51:45 (#10875)

So, do you ever sit and play the game from the other side of the table? How much do you know about the game from our side? Do you count? If not, do you want to learn and do you want to play the game from the same side as us sometimes?

Jack & OPC
Posted by OnePitCritter on 02-Dec-2004 22:33:38 (#11070)

Posted By: Stealth Bomber

Sorry Stealth Bomber, 18 days late on a response. ;O)

Yes, I play often. At minimum once a week.

I know a lot from a Ploppy's standpoint, because I spent years as one. Sometimes when the variance and Jack Daniel's gets the better of me I am still one. I do not have the dicipline that The Mayor and many of the Pro's on this board have.

I do count. Basic HiLo with some excellent shuffle-tracking. At least I can shuffle-track alone. It is nearly impossible with Jack! But I do so enjoy time in the Casino with old Friends of my Father's! ;O)

I like HiLo because Jack and I can still play pretty well together.

I like the idea that the most basic system you can easily handle is the best for you. I realize HiLo is outdated but it has rarely if ever failed me alone. Not that I play that often alone. I like nice cocktails that bring me nice drinks.

Sincerely

OnePitCritter

Persistence In the Face of Uncertainty
Posted by SammyBoy on 15-Nov-2004 10:02:53 (#10862)

A Stock Trading friend sent this to me. Substitute Trader/Trading with Counter/Counting.

Persistence In the Face of Uncertainty
By Michael A. Cavanaugh

Trading is a rough business for many reasons. First, success is not
assured. Second, even when one attains success, it may be fleeting. The
odds are against you as a trader, and only a select few can conquer
seemingly insurmountable obstacles to achieve lasting success. That's where
psychology can play an important role. The proper psychological attitude
can help you achieve and maintain success.

There are many occupations that are hard to do. Imagine working as the
president of a large corporation or a government official in hard economic
times. Imagine trying to sell insurance when few people have enough money
to buy it. Not anyone can succeed under such extreme pressure, but people
do. What you need to decide is whether you want to persist in the face of
uncertainty or shrink from the challenge. In terms of making a profit, the
hard part isn't trading profitably, but staying profitable. Trading can be
tedious. You have to make trade after trade. Even when market conditions
are in your favor, it can be tedious if you have to trade day after day,
year after year. Even the most resilient trader is prone to burn out.

It is easy to persist when you believe that your efforts will be rewarded.
That's how people do hard things, like get through college. They believe
the hard work will pay off and that long-term success will be assured.
Trading is different, however. There comes a point when you discover that
success is not assured. You find out that you can make huge profits one
year, and almost nothing the next. The future isn't certain, and that can
make even the most astute trader feel uneasy. A trader may be prone to
"learned helplessness." When you experience a setback that seems
insurmountable, you may start to believe that there is no way to get out of
it. If you tried extremely hard to stay profitable and can't do it, you may
start to think, "What is the point? Why should I continue with this, if I
can't remain profitable?" It is natural to want to seek out a new
profession, but don't despair.

Recovering from setbacks is vital for long-term success. Enduring trading
success isn't guaranteed, but few things in this world are a certainty.
When all seems hopeless, don't give up. Search for solutions, and take
specific action. Remind yourself that it's not the objective "hopeless"
situation that causes one to give up, but the interpretation of the
situation. How you explain the cause of the dire situation accounts for how
you cope with it. If you think, "I've always been inept and this is just
another instance of how ineffectual I've always been," you will tend to
view the situation as hopeless and want to just give up. But if you think,
"this is merely a temporary setback and I'll be able to get past it," you
will search for solutions to change matters and overcome the dire situation.

Trading is a tough business in which one must often persist in the face of
defeat. Your thinking style dictates your persistence level. It's
unproductive to think pessimistically, and believe that all is hopeless.
Instead, view seemingly hopeless failures as a temporary setback from which
you can easily recover if you keep at it. By looking for specific aspects
of your trading that you can actually change, and believing you can change
them, you will face setbacks with optimism rather than despair and
helplessness.

Good article...
Posted by zengrifter on 15-Nov-2004 22:11:30 (#10871)

...describes what scientific counting is like. zg

ROR calculations
Posted by Sput on 16-Nov-2004 13:49:27 (#10874)

When people calculate Risk of Ruin are they assuming a reinvestment of winnings in the bank roll, or are they assuming the bank roll remains constant? For example I understand that if my BR is $20000 and my max bet is $200 I have an RoR of around 1%, is that with or without reinvestment of winnings?

Usually it's not adjusted
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 16-Nov-2004 22:05:19 (#10876)

Your RoR depends on a few things other than your max bet so I can't tell if that's correct. 100 times your max bet for the kinds of spread used in shoe games is close to a full-Kelly bankroll, and the risk of ruin for full-Kelly with no readjust is much higher, around 13%. To get it under 2% you need to go to half-Kelly, which is twice the bankroll requirement.

There is a quick and easy way to convert a full-Kelly to a helf-Kelly bankroll. Simply take your bankroll and bet it on a hand of craps. About 49% of the time you walk away properly capitalized for a blackjack career.

more general question...
Posted by Sput on 16-Nov-2004 22:09:34 (#10877)

A more general question is does RoR calculation involve spending winnings or reinvesting them?

Reinvesting
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 17-Nov-2004 04:28:53 (#10878)

If you always spend all of your winnings, you will definitely eventually reach ruin. Sooner or later you will lose enough hands in a row to exhaust your bankroll. When you reinvest, your bankroll builds up to a point where ruin becomes less and less likely simply because of the amount of money you have. It accelerates at a rate faster than the probability of losing enough hands in a row, something like a rocket reaching escape velocity from earth. But ruin is still always there- even if you have a billion dollars playing a $5 game, it is possible to lose it all, just not likely in a million lifetimes.

One thing about ruin theory though is that it's absolute and the only parameters are the advantage of your game, the variance, and the amount of money you have at that time that you're calculating it. Let's say you have a half-Kelly bankroll and that gives you a RoR of 1.8%. Now let's say you lose half of it; your RoR at this point is around 13%, because you've already been halfway screwed and you're on the bad end of the bell curve, and you must forget all about how you used to have a half-Kelly bankroll. Sad and frustrating but real.

Awesome, thanks for your help *NM* *NM*
Posted by Sput on 17-Nov-2004 16:43:55 (#10879)

Advantage gamblers lose case against Control Board agents
Posted by zengrifter on 17-Nov-2004 17:48:41 (#10880)

Advantage gamblers lose case against Control Board agents

By SEAN WHALEY
REVIEW-JOURNAL CAPITAL BUREAU

CARSON CITY -- A pair of "advantage gamblers," who use dealer or casino mistakes to increase their odds of winning, lost an appeal Monday to the Supreme Court seeking the right to sue two Gaming Control Board agents for wrongful arrest.

The court, in a brief order, agreed with a lower court ruling that Michael Russo and James Grosjean could not sue the control board and two of its agents, Roderick O'Neal and Charles Pointon, for damages stemming from an incident four years ago at Caesars Palace.

The actions of the two agents "were not so sufficiently egregious as to strip them of the qualified immunity that they are entitled to under statute," the court said.

The two men sought to sue the board and its agents after their 2000 arrests following a win of about $18,000 playing a table game at Caesars Palace.

Russo was jailed for about 12 hours and Grosjean was jailed for four days.

Grosjean is a doctoral candidate in economics at the University of Chicago and author of "Beyond Counting," a "how-to" gambling manual on beating the odds in casinos.

The men, through their Las Vegas attorney Bob Nersesian, have also sued Park Place Entertainment Corp., now called Caesars Entertainment, and its Caesars Palace resort. That lawsuit is in progress.

Nersesian said he was "flabbergasted" by the ruling because the claim made against the agents was that they concocted evidence, such as card-bending, to justify the arrest of the two men.

Nersesian said he will seek a U.S. Supreme Court review on the federal issues raised in the case.

The case started on April 21, 2000, when Grosjean was handcuffed and detained by security guards at Caesars Palace for allegedly cheating. Grosjean was allegedly winning a card game due to a "sloppy" dealer and his own "hole carding," where a player tries to gain an advantage by catching glimpses of a blackjack dealer's unturned cards.

In a separate incident involving other gaming control board agents, Grosjean was detained for half an hour, searched and cuffed at the Imperial Palace in Las Vegas after walking through the resort but not gambling.

In a lawsuit in that case filed against the hotel, Grosjean recently won a $400,000 judgment after a jury trial.

A jury found that Grosjean's rights were violated by the casino when security guards at the Strip hotel-casino detained him and roughed him up.

end

which casino do you offer to play blackjack in las vegas
Posted by tammy on 17-Nov-2004 19:01:31 (#10881)

HI Im tammy How do you do?
I have no job and researching blackjack everyday for like 5years,
I want to play blackjack everyday but my country has no casino so I have to visit different country to play blackjack.
If I have a green card then I can play blackjack until I broke But now I only play blackjack for 6times a week trip in year.

next year on JAN I am planning to go to las vegas,
now I am thinking about which casino is better to play blackjack.
EL Cortez or Lady Luck which is single deck with H17 DOA noDAS pen is soso(-0.17),
imperial palace which is DD with H17 DOA DAS pen is very good(-0.40),
Or 5star hotel which is bellagio, ceasers palace,mirage ,stardust(this is 3star) has DD S17 DOA DAS pen is 55%-65%( normal) But min is 25 so I am not rich enough to play that.(-0.20)

north las vegas has a poker palace casino has a single deck H17 DOA noDAS pen is 100% and BJ is even money, house edge is very bat but pen is 100%

Last week I went to reno to play blackjack and I went to rail city casino and there are single deck H17 DOA noDAS no sur pen is very good like 80% and also they deal in face up .Very good isnt it?

So I ask everyone which casino do you like to play in las vegas?

where in Vegas
Posted by KennilworthKid on 18-Nov-2004 10:58:44 (#10884)

Tammy

If indeed you are a young woman, don't go to the El Cortez alone. It is a bad place...and don't go to the Western either, it's worse.

I guess you like single deck blackjack...and Reno/Sparks is best for that. So go there instead of than Vegas if you are coming a long way for Blackjack.

In Vegas, shoe games (6 - 8 decks) are good and in nice places.

Also, lots of okay places have double deck games. Study for shoe and double deck games.

Per the link at this site, the top 5 games in Vegas are currently:

1. Western--Single Deck (don't go--not safe)
2. Caesars--8 Deck (is on the Strip, very nice place)
3. Plaza--Double Deck (is Downtown on Fremont Street, good place)
4. Las Vegas Club--Double Deck (is Downtown on Fremont Street, good place)
5. Suncoast--Double Deck (is 10 miles northeast from Strip, is good place)

Good luck.

Where to Play
Posted by Sonny on 18-Nov-2004 11:20:15 (#10885)

> next year on JAN I am planning to go to las vegas,
> now I am thinking about which casino is better to play blackjack.
> EL Cortez or Lady Luck which is single deck with H17 DOA noDAS pen is soso
> (-0.17),

I've never found anything great at the Lady Luck. The El Cortez is playable as long as you can get away with it. Same with the Las Vegas Club. These are both good choices for low stakes players who are looking for $3-$5 minimums.

> imperial palace which is DD with H17 DOA DAS pen is very good(-0.40),
> Or 5star hotel which is bellagio, ceasers palace,mirage ,stardust(this is
> 3star) has DD S17 DOA DAS pen is 55%-65%( normal) But min is 25 so I am not
> rich enough to play that.(-0.20)

I think all of the DD games on the Strip are going to be $25 minimums. There may be a few $5 tables, but they usually have unacceptable penetration. I've also heard numerous complaints about the Strip going to 6:5 payouts instead of the usual 3:2.

> north las vegas has a poker palace casino has a single deck H17 DOA noDAS
> pen is 100% and BJ is even money, house edge is very bat but pen is 100%

I played there last year but didn't see that game. Any game that pays even money for BJs is probably not worth playing. The 100% penetration sounds a little sketchy to me as well.

> Last week I went to reno to play blackjack and I went to rail city casino
> and there are single deck H17 DOA noDAS no sur pen is very good like 80% and
> also they deal in face up .Very good isnt it?

That is excellent. I played Reno/Sparks a few years ago and loved it. the casinos are smaller and tend to get crowded faster, but the games are fun.

> So I ask everyone which casino do you like to play in las vegas?

If you are playing for low stakes you should stick to the downtown area.

-Sonny-

thanks for response to me
Posted by tammy on 18-Nov-2004 18:58:46 (#10887)

Thanks Sonny and KennilworthKid ,

Im not american so I dont know the meaning of not safe at downtown in las vegas.

Few years ago I went to ladydack by walk and noone was walking outside and I was very fear.

Last week I went to reno and san francisco,and I went to more than 20 casino.
1deck H17 D10�@noDAS sp4 noRSA no sur
2deck H17 DOA noDAS sp4 noRSA no sur some casino is D10 on DD also

Cal-Neva Reno downtown
Carson Station Carson City
Circus-Circus Reno dpwntown
Diamond's at the Holiday Inn Reno
Eldorado Reno downtown this casino has MP21 as I know is here and flamingo in las vegas this BJ computer system is be on trial now.The system is computer knows how much you bet with a sensor and what a cards are left and If casino is disadvantage then computer tell dealer to shuffle.
Fitzgerald's Reno downtown
Golden Phoenix Reno downtown
Harrah's Reno downtown
Caesar's Tahoe Stateline
Harrah's Tahoe Stateline
Harvey's Tahoe Stateline
Hilton Reno
John Ascuaga's Nugget Sparks
Silver Legacy reno downtown

1deck H17 D9 noDAS sp4 noRSA

Sands Reno

1deck H17 DOA noDAS sp4 noRSA no sur

Peppermill Reno
Silver Club Sparks
Atlantis Reno
Boomtown vendi
Rail City Sparks
Siena Reno
fundango carson city

and also I went to cache casino in CA , river rock casino in north of SF in CA.
cache has a SD and DD but it was 6 to 5 BJ and all 6decks are H17 DOA DAS sp4 RSAto4 . river rock has all 6decks S17 DOA DAS sp4 RSAto4.

last month I went to oregon and washinton state but thare are bat house rule.
3month ago, I stayed at imperial palace in las vegas and I think some dealer was good pen on DD min10-max500 tables.

I am japanese and I live in japan , sometimes I go to near country to play blackjack and thare are so many no hole card around in japan.
tinian which is next to saipan ,its 8deck H17 DOS DAS no hole card this is bat, Australia has 6deck H17 D9 noDAS this is very bat!
some country is interesting like new Caledonia has no hole card 6deck S17 DOA DAS SP to unlimited include A 777 is automatic win even dealer has a BJ hit4times(if you have 6cards and less then 21)win automatic even dealer has a BJ,In Philippines also interesting no hole card 6deck S17 DOA DAS SPwith unlimited and 777 is 3to1 678 suited like straight flash 3to1 and also P21 player has a 21 and dealer has a BJ then push.and has early sur but excude A.
this house edge is like -0.01???

tammy

PS tammy is my nick name and I just wander is tammy is a womens name?
I am male and 32 years ago and I played blackjack since I was 24 years old,
I went to las vegas on honeymoon and I was very excited and I quit a jod and now I have no jod for 8 years,,,,, my dream is live in US and play blackjack every single days,,, lol

"Tammy"
Posted by Dog Hand on 18-Nov-2004 22:32:33 (#10889)

PS tammy is my nick name and I just wander is tammy is a womens name?

tammy,

In the U.S., "Tammy" is the nickname for "Tamara", which is indeed a woman's name. You might want to go by "Timmy" (nickname for "Timothy") or "Tommy" (nickname for "Thomas") to avoid such gender confusion... or then again, maybe not ;-)

Dog Hand

So Tammy, how well did you do?
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 18-Nov-2004 23:37:17 (#10891)

I have personally played in every one of those casinos except the one north of San Francisco. I think you forgot to list Rail City in Sparks. I take it that you didn't give Western Village in Sparks a run for their money. Baldini's in not too bad either for a couple of quick snappers. ;-)

Baldini's now worthless --- only $50 table max *NM*
Posted by LVBear584 on 19-Nov-2004 00:48:37 (#10893)

Not worthless to me! =)
Posted by Sonny on 19-Nov-2004 11:37:49 (#10902)

It is still not as bad as the Auto/Truck plaza. I was amazed when my medium bet (only about $40) was denied. It is not very often that a red-chipper gets to brag about playing two hands at the table max!

Of course, that's stil not a good reason to play there.

-Sonny-

difficult to win
Posted by tammy on 19-Nov-2004 01:47:13 (#10895)

Hi how do you do.

This year I went to
FEB 2004 New Frontier Las Vegas 6night most of the time I played at Stardust.
I played for about 40 hours on DD min25 tables and I lost 2000 dollars.
JUNE 2004 I went to New Caledonia and played 50 hours and won 1000 dollars.
AUG 2004 Imperial Palace in LV 5 night only played about 20 hours betting 10-50 and I lost 100 dollars.
OCT 2004 1 nignt at chinook winds casino OR and also I went to spirit�@mountain casino OR,2night stayed at the portland OR and I went to LA CENTER WA every night. total time I played about 20 hours and lost 200 dollars.
NOV 2004 reno most of the time I played at peppermill , fundango,rail city and siena and played about 40 hours and I won 100 dollars.

I can not win , how is everyone do for a tip? last week as you know I won 100 dollars but I think I am spending more than 100 dollars for a tip,so if I didnt give a tip to a dealer I won 200 dollars. I do not know the playing 40 hours and a tip 100 dollars is too much or too less .

About 6 years ago I know nothing about a blackjack and give a too much tip to a dealer and spend a money like a stupid ,once I stayed at a NYNY and lost 5000 dollars and I had a no money and my wife and I went to ATM to get some money to play. From now on, I study very hard but in Japan there is no detail about a blackjack because Japan has no blackjack.

My style is usually I played min 10 dollar table and bet between 10 to 50.
sometimes I played 25min and bet between 25 to 100.
But 100 dollar bet for me is too high amount of money that my leg starting to shake.

tammy

PS HI MR Mayor I looked your pic and I thought you are Steven Seagal.

That's a very large tip
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 19-Nov-2004 11:27:22 (#10900)

Tipping is a subject of great debate here. Some people do not believe in tipping at all. Generally I tip about 5-10% of my EV. But I also expect to get something for it, so I tip the dealer and tell him to deal faster, which earns me several times my tip back. If I don't tip the dealer and tell him to deal faster, he will deal slower, and this would cost me more than the tip would. In the two places where I use a player's card the pit bosses consider your tipping when rating your comps, so I get it back there too. But you don't have to tip nearly that much. $1-$2 per blackjack will do it, at your level.

Here's why...
Posted by Sonny on 19-Nov-2004 11:28:17 (#10901)

> I do not know the playing 40 hours and a tip 100 dollars is too much or
> too less.

It depends on how much you expect to win after 40 hours of play. If you expect to earn $20 each hour then you would have won $800 after 40 hours of play. Now $100 is about 12.5% of your profit. It is the same as giving away 5 hours worth of profit. Why would you work for 5 hours without pay?

Most serious players will not tip at all. There is just nothing positive that you get in return for a tip. You are being polite to the dealer, but he cannot help you win any money (legally). Like you said, you would have won twice as much if you didn't tip.

> My style is usually I played min 10 dollar table and bet between 10 to 50.

A 1:5 bet spread is acceptable for single-deck games but you will not win very much in multi-deck games unless you are walking away from the negative counts. Here are the "textbook" bet spreads for various games:

Single-deck - 1:4 ($10 to $40)
Double-Deck - 1:8 ($5 to $40)
Six-deck - 1:12 ($5 to $60)

These are the minimum bet spreads you will need in order to maintain a decent win rate. Leaving during negative counts will also help. You might want to think about spreading more and tipping less. You will win more money and you will get to KEEP more of it.

> sometimes I played 25 min and bet between 25 to 100.
> But 100 dollar bet for me is too high amount of money that my leg
> starting to shake.

I know what you mean. I once had two $15 bets turn into $90 after splits and doubles. My legs were shaking then!

> PS HI MR Mayor I looked your pic and I thought you are Steven Seagal.

HAAAA! That's hilarious! It must be the cool shades...

-Sonny-

Stop tipping! *NM*
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 19-Nov-2004 12:42:29 (#10905)

Tsunami would be a cool name :-) *NM*
Posted by KennilworthKid on 19-Nov-2004 10:54:50 (#10899)

TV show plug
Posted by The Mayor on 18-Nov-2004 12:29:36 (#10886)

Watch "Beating Vegas" on Sunday, Dec 5, 9PM, National Geographic Channel. There is a piece about the MIT team on the show.

Yours truly got to play "the professor." It's my acting debut! Look out John Travolta.

--Mayor

Great Job
Posted by Ohio_Jones on 05-Dec-2004 21:24:06 (#11093)

Very convincing Eliot. Hope you don't leave the blackjack community for SAG. Though it pains me to watch that stuff with Griffin.

First thing I thought....
Posted by suicyco maniac on 18-Nov-2004 22:44:31 (#10890)

What is that picture of "Blackjack for blood" doing on the home page of CC.com....... No offense Eliot but first the confusion with Night Trains book and now almost the same cover as Bryce...just my 2 cents SM

My pick for pics was the LV Strip pic :-)
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 18-Nov-2004 23:45:55 (#10892)

I think it was the cover that could get the average Joe player salivating and wanting to learn more about BJ.

Yes, and no
Posted by The Mayor on 19-Nov-2004 09:22:04 (#10897)

Hi SM,

My childhood friend designed the cover. He has never seen a BJ book in his life, and this is what he came up with. I like it a lot -- the Jack is introspective, trying to determine his identity, thinking about who he is and what he is doing in life. The Jack is having an identity crisis. This is very different than BJ for Blood where the Jack is a murderer. Yes, at first glance, they are similar, but look deeper.

Also, seeing it close up, it has a lot of dignity as a cover, and will sit well on the shelf.

As for "Blackjack in the Zone" I have this from the rge21 web site:

NOTE: This book has gone out of print, but will be combined with
Blackjack Blueprint and reprinted under another title this fall.
We will carry the new printing when it is available.

Thanks very much for your feedback, I will discuss this with the publisher and cover artist and see if they think it is a problem.

--Mayor

book
Posted by eyesfor21 on 19-Nov-2004 10:37:13 (#10898)

ya may get sued with the cover it is very similar.
Mayor, put in the phd with your name anybody with one should use. worse case
the book may sell more not less!

Cover art!
Posted by hinoon on 19-Nov-2004 11:41:49 (#10903)

Looks great!

The yellow really pops, which will grab the attention of browsing ploppies from across the floor of Borders Books. The introspective Jack is also a perfect image for the blend of philosophy and gaming that you have in your essays.

Can't wait to get the real thing in hand.

I haven't read BJ for Blood, so I can't compare...but I think this is a great image.

I'm off for Thanksgiving. I wonder if they have casinos in Dublin.

Cheers,

HiNoon

My concerns
Posted by The Mayor on 19-Nov-2004 11:55:12 (#10904)

I think it looks great too... but I have a lot of concerns about being a target in the BJ community. I did not realize until yesterday that this cover looks like Bryce Carlson's as much as it does. Here is a link:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0935926232/ref=sib_dp_pt/103-3848664-8786207#reader-link

I may have to make a last minute change ... damn this is hard.

--Mayor

Oooh, it does!
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 19-Nov-2004 17:36:37 (#10907)

Wow that is freaky! Probably something bouncing around in the subconscious of your artist. The bloody sword is a little too Freudian for me; makes me think of certain frightening sexual experiences of my youth. The recursiveness of the Jack looking at a playing card is much better.

Hey here's an idea! How about da Vinci's Vitruvian Man with a blackjack baize as his center? That would be cool. If you'd like, I'll cobble it together as I envision it and send it to you.

Still Wondering *LINK*
Posted by Ohio_Jones on 20-Nov-2004 00:00:59 (#10916)

Were you planning on keeping the same subtitle "Lessons In Winning At Blackjack And Life"? This is similar to Ian Andersens' "Burning The Tables In Las Vegas" subtitle "Keys To Success In Blackjack And In Life". One good thing about this is that people searching keywords will come up with both books.

I'd lose the PhD on the cover
Posted by BJ_Player2004 on 20-Nov-2004 14:43:10 (#10923)

One other thing about the subtitle. Does "Lessons" sound too much like work? These people (your target market) like things easy. Perhaps "Strategies" would be a better lead-off phrase.

you mean ireland Dublin?
Posted by tammy on 20-Nov-2004 04:01:03 (#10919)

hello.

I find
The Casino at Marino,
Fairview Park, off Malahide Road, Dublin 3
TEL: 01-8331618
FEB-MAR NOV-DEC open on SAT and SUN 1200-1600
APR OCT open on SAT and SUN 1200-1700
MAY open everyday 1000-1700
JUN-SET open everyday 1000-1800
entry fee is 2.75 Euro

Is this a casino too?
http://www.silksclub.ie/index1.htm
http://www.fitzwilliamcardclub.com/
http://www.mayfaircasinoclub.com/
http://www.merrioncasinoclub.com/

Oh my goodness , so many casinos ,lol

Usually in UK,you have to be a member and after 24 hours later you can go in to a casino. If you can , be a member at casinos website before you leave a home.

Ireland =/= UK
Posted by zarkifleeg on 20-Nov-2004 11:51:05 (#10921)

Erm, you might find yourself a trifle unpopular if you
visit Ireland and give the impression you think you're
in the UK.

Unsolicited comment on cover--
Posted by KennilworthKid on 19-Nov-2004 18:39:26 (#10910)

I am looking forward to buying and reading your book. I enjoyed the snippets of The Golden Gate you have posted.

Unsolicited advice is worth what you pay for it, but anyway here is mine.

The current picture on the cover is a classic of the Jack of Spades as per a set of Bicycle playing cards. But I too also thought of Blackjack for Blood when I first saw your proposed cover.

The title "The Blackjack Zone" seems to me to be a take off on "The Twilight Zone", the old eerie sci-fi drama series hosted by Rod Serling. If the book has some strange events in it, I would think the cover should fortell that. Thus, strangely odd colors, unusual fonts, or a surreal scene on might be appropriate for the cover. (Perhaps a Jack of Clubs/Spade done up in the style of Vincent Van Goghs final self-portrait, with its eeire green background and a glow emitting from his head? Or something with stars and a dark sky? Or a giant blackjack monolith--a la 2001 Space Oddessy--with players around the base of it?)

Anyway, I hope this helps, and I realize that you are ready to go to press with this so changing what you have may be difficult.

More about the criminals running Chumash *LINK*
Posted by LVBear584 on 19-Nov-2004 16:17:03 (#10906)

State officials insist that, despite the issue of sovereignty, state government agencies have the authority to protect the integrity of Indian gaming due to compacts signed between the governor and tribes that allow tribal casinos to operate.

surveillance taking shots of gals in Canada
Posted by eyesfor21 on 20-Nov-2004 12:09:52 (#10922)

Spy-cam in casino change room
But no charges filed for violating privacy

Sat Nov 20 2004
TOP Manitoba Lotteries Corporation officials have known for more than a year that three of their Club Regent casino surveillance technicians allegedly were involved in secretly recording a female performer while she was changing backstage. But the Crown corporation didn't alert police about the incidents, which date back four years. And no criminal charges were laid, even though one of the men confessed to making -- then destroying -- a tape showing at least one performer undressing.

Subsequently, the incident was treated as a labour relations issue and the three employees -- who worked in the surveillance monitoring room -- were "terminated" last spring, said MLC spokeswoman Susan Olynyk.

She said both the corporation's CEO and chairman were informed at that point and agreed with the decision.

She said there were "other issues" involved in the termination, but she couldn't specify what they were.

Olynyk added that when an MLC employee disclosed the existence of the change-room video in early 2003, "we were very, very disturbed by it."

"We took it very seriously," she said, and new procedures have been put in place to prevent another incident.
"Our surveillance equipment is to be used for the protection of our guests, the protection of our customers, our employees and our assets and, of course, to protect game integrity in all of our games."

The case -- which had been covered in the cloak of confidentiality that typifies human-resources issues -- only came to light now because of an anonymous letter about the incident that arrived at the Free Press this week.

Olynik said the decision not to proceed criminally was made because investigators couldn't locate the videotape.

But although MLC investigators reportedly scoured casino surveillance tapes for evidence, the residence of the man who confessed to making a spy-cam-style videotape was never searched.

Only police can seek and execute a search warrant in such circumstances. Nevertheless, MLC investigators kept the case to themselves.

"Due to the lack of evidence of criminal activity, it was deemed not appropriate to go to the police," Olynik said.
There is no legal onus on MLC to call police in -- or even report the incident -- but deputy attorney general Rob Finlayson said yesterday that would be the normal course of events.

"If you think something is not right, you report it to the police," he said, "and you let the police do their job."

Scott Smith, the minister responsible for the Manitoba Lotteries Corporation, ordered a full report of the case after he heard about it for the first time yesterday.

"I'm certainly asking for a lot more detail and what action was taken, or not taken, and why," Smith said.

MLC security chief Gerry Boose said yesterday his team of experienced retired police officers did a "thorough" investigation but weren't able to identify the victim or victims.

But in the letter that was dropped off at the Free Press by someone who called himself "a former MLC employee," the victim was given a name.

The "talented, good-looking" young woman that the letter says was at the centre of the incident would have been just 19 at the time that the unsupervised monitoring-room employees taped her changing costumes between acts.

She appeared with an ensemble of singers three times at Club Regent mainstage in 2000, the same year Boose says MLC investigators believe the tape was made.

The temporary change area is described as a screened area, about two metres square, that's open at the top to surveillance cameras that were supposed to be turned off during costume changes, the letter says.
"She goes into the screen several times to change," the anonymous informant writes, "but she is observed by the Club Regent surveillance crew in the monitoring room and photographed and recorded by techs... "

Here the writer names two men.

The following night, the letter continues, the screened changing room is "adjusted" by one of those involved "so they have a better frontal view."

Later, according to the writer, those involved "show their handiwork" to a pair of female casino co-workers.

The letter contains the names of both.

"One week later at a private party they show the video to guests."

While MLC investigators believe the video was destroyed, the letter-writer claims "copies have been seen just recently."

The anonymous informant doesn't say in the letter whether he has actually viewed the tape.

Olynik said she couldn't verify the accuracy of the information contained in the letter.
On Thursday night, the Free Press contacted one of those named in the letter as having been involved in the incident.

He confirmed that he had worked for MLC, but denied being terminated or having any involvement in the videotaping incident.

He then cut short the interview.

The letter-writer was obviously angry about how MLC handled the incident.

He suspected the young woman was never told she had been filmed, and he speculated that others may have been caught on tape.

He named names of those within MLC who knew about the case and who were involved in the investigation.

He identified a person who he said reported the incident.

He offered telephone numbers -- including cellphone numbers -- where MLC officials could be contacted.

"AND," in large typed letters he demanded to know, "WHY NO CRIMINAL CHARGES LAID?"
The MLC spy-cam episode has echoes of a case that happened a year before the casino videotaping incident is alleged to have occurred.

In early 1999, a 56-year-old Winnipeg man was found guilty of mischief for hiding a camera in the women's washroom of his family restaurant.

He was fined $3,000 and placed on three years probation, and ordered to take counselling and perform 200 hours of community work.

The maximum penalty could have been six months in jail.

At that time, Judge Bruce Miller called the videotaping despicable and said any right-thinking person would be outraged by the gross invasion of privacy the victims endured.

But there was something else that was gnawing at the anonymous letter-writer.

He also wanted to know who, specifically, was responsible for not taking the criminal-charge route.

Boose, MLC's vice-president of corporate security and a veteran of 30 years with the Ontario Provincial Police, said yesterday, "We met and consulted extensively internally. We had our management team along with HR (human resources). We had very, very seasoned investigators involved in this and consulted our legal counsel and concluded it was appropriate to deal with it as a labour relations matter."

The veteran police officer argued that someone confessing to what could be judged a crime isn't enough evidence to call in the police.
"You realize," he added, "the police have to get a search warrant. But the police have to have sufficient evidence to do so."

Asked about the confession, Boose said:

"There was a statement made that there was a tape produced and the tape was destroyed. So, therefore, there would be nothing to search for. I can assure you within our own premises we made a very rigourous search of all tapes and found no evidence that this tape existed."

David Deutscher, a law professor at the University of Manitoba, had a different view.

He said if police had been called in, "there's a reasonable possibility" that a warrant could have been obtained to search the home of the man who admitted making the tape.

Deutscher also said this of MLC's decision to keep it an internal labour relations issue: "I think realistically -- if you're looking at it -- they made a decision not to make this issue public. For whatever reasons."

To some degree, the law professor added, MLC is publicly accountable for that decision.

"And ought to be."

gordon.sinclair@freepress.mb.ca

"You've Got Heat" by Barfarkel now for sale
Posted by The Mayor on 19-Nov-2004 17:43:56 (#10909)

Stanford Wong's comments:

When historians in the distant future want to know what advantage play was like circa 2000, they will start with a carful study of Barfarkel's's You've Got Heat - the Las Vegas Card Counting Adventures of LV Pro. This book is nonfiction; Barfarkel describes real people, real places, and real incidents with amazing attention to detail. There is more to being a card counter than just winning money from casinos; Barfarkel shows that card counters have fu too. Before you take on the casinos with your own money, read this book to get an appreciation for the ups and downs your bankroll will experience."

The book is for sale through our online store.

--Mayor

Just received copy #001.
Posted by Titaniumman on 22-Nov-2004 16:44:59 (#10933)

Courtesy of Barfy and Al Rogers.

It's got a nice personal note handwritten by Barf.

The cover art has a lot of detail that you can't see in the website ad. I can't wait to read it from cover to cover.

Barf, thanks for including me in the acknowledgements, along with my cameo appearances in the adventures. I hope you've received the signed, framed first dollar bill earned from your book by now. Note that the mat background is 21 table green baize.

The book is well printed, and I'm sure that it's going to be a joy to read for anyone who enjoys the adventures of advantage casino play and our community's culture and friendships.

-T-

Book # 001 *LINK*
Posted by Barfarkel on 24-Nov-2004 23:45:37 (#10959)

It's got a nice personal note handwritten by Barf.

Glad to do it. When Al Rogers at Pi Yee Press called me while I was in Vegas last week to tell me that the first shipment of 30 books had arrived, I traveled to the office the following day to see the completed book for the very first time. Al wasn't in the office, but Chris was, and the first thing I asked about is when the first book would be sent out to Titaniumman. Chris replied that as soon as I sign it, he'll send it, so I signed my very first sold book. I want to tell you that it was kinda thrilling to finally hold my completed book in my hot little hands :-)

The cover art has a lot of detail that you can't see in the website ad. I can't wait to read it from cover to cover.

Thanks. We must have gone through 26 drafts of that cover art before graphic artist Ben Jordan finally drew up what I had been seeing in my mind's eye. The hardest part was getting right the expression on the face of the seated player, but I think we finally did it.

Hey, you earned the right to be in the stories by hanging with me that morning on the North Strip, after our consultation with Stumpy at that lounge gathering. Eliot is also included in a chapter as is Zengrifter of course, although I refer to him throughout as The Grifter. And yes, I received the framed dollar bill with your signature, which arrived sometime while I was on my last Vegas trip. Thanks for the nice sentiment you wrote. That last Vegas trip concluded Sunday with a grueling 12 hour drive from LV back to LA in a sudden snowstorm, when they temporarily closed parts of Interstate 15.

The book is well printed, and I'm sure that it's going to be a joy to read for anyone who enjoys the adventures of advantage casino play and our community's culture and friendships.

Thanks again. I know you'll enjoy the book, and I hope a lot of you guys and gals on this site buy it as well. We've tried to make it simultaneously entertaining as well as informative. You can compare the building of my BJ bankroll with your own experiences in this regard, and chart your evolution as an AP with my own.

Cheers,

Barfarkel

These books are *not* autographed.
Posted by The Mayor on 24-Nov-2004 13:37:02 (#10956)

There was a thread here stating that the books we sold would be autographed. It turns out that this is not the case, our information was incorrect.

We apologize for any incovenience this may have caused.

--Mayor

Barfarkel tols me that he will...
Posted by zengrifter on 24-Nov-2004 19:43:56 (#10958)

...coordinate the autographing, at you request. drop him a line to discuss logistics. zg

About signing the books *LINK*
Posted by Barfarkel on 24-Nov-2004 23:57:26 (#10960)

Since the books are warehoused in Vegas, and I live in L.A., there's a way I can still sign your book.

1) You can email me at Barfarkel@aol.com with your address and the handle or name you'd like me to use, and I'll sign a white stick-on label that I'll mail to you and you can peel off the backing and insert it inside on page i, above the "You've Got Heat" large font title.

Cheers,

Barfarkel

Two Unrelated Questions
Posted by CanKen on 20-Nov-2004 20:13:20 (#10924)

1) An unusual situation, at least for me. I'm sitting next to a good, BS, non-counting player. He's betting quite a bit more than I am but not doing too well. On this hand he gets A,7 vs 4, but hasn't enough money to double, so he asks me if I want the double-down action. The count is quite good, and I happily accept and match his bet. We win the hand and I thank him for the opportunity.
But thinking about it after, I wonder, since his bet was about twice my, (correct for me), bet that round, maybe I should have doubled for less, just matching my own bet size, not his? Comments?

2) If only one spot is available, I spread 1-14, but if two spots are open I spread 1x1-2x10. What one spot spread is this equivalent to? I have been told that it's not equivalent to 1-20.

some answers
Posted by gorilla player on 20-Nov-2004 23:06:15 (#10925)

Others can probably answer better, but this will get you to thinking.

1. Your bet size is probably tailored to your bankroll and acceptable ROR? Obviously if you matched his larger bet for the DD play, you just bet more than normal. And increased your ROR somewhat (probably not a lot unless his bet was _way_ bigger than yours. IE even with a good count, you don't win all double downs...

2. 2x10 is definitely not the same as 1-20. For a guess, I would say it is more like 1-16, but someone here probably knows exactly how to calculate this. I'm just a computer guy. :)

Re: Answers
Posted by CanKen on 21-Nov-2004 10:12:28 (#10927)

Right - I set my bets at about 2/3 Kelly, which makes my max bet about 1% of BR.
This gives a pretty conservative ROR, so, as you say, the play in question was an overbet, but nothing to worry about.

2. 2x10 is definitely not the same as 1-20. For a guess, I would say it is more like 1-16, but someone here probably knows exactly how to calculate this. I'm just a computer guy. :)

If anyone can supply the math to calculate this I would appreciate it.

How I calculate it
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 21-Nov-2004 00:15:07 (#10926)

The proper bet for a situation is related to your advantage and your standard deviation. Now for certain DD hands your advantage is very high, so proportianally the appropriate maximum bet is very high. For DD hands the average advantage is somewhere around 15-20%. Let's say I had an opportunity to DD on someone's 11 against a dealer 6. I'd feel very comfortable betting 10% of my bankroll in that situation. A7 vs. 4 is not quite as good, but still your advantage is quite a bit higher than it normally would be just based on the count. So I think you did the right thing.

Spreading to multiple hands definitely decreases your variance to where you can increase your total bet with the same risk. It's a very profitable thing to do. This probably isn't totally accurate, but I multiply the bet I would use on 1 hand by the square root of 2 or 3 hands when playing multiple hands. E.g., if the bet would be $100 on 1 hand, I'd split $140 among 2 hands or $170 across 3 hands.

Thanks for the input
Posted by CanKen on 21-Nov-2004 10:33:53 (#10928)

Makes sense. If you knew ahead of time that you were going to get a good DD on a hand, you could put out a bigger than normal bet.

I understand what you are saying. For two hands, I use 75% of the one hand bet on each, (or a little less), which amounts to about the same as what you said. I've never used three spots.
However, this isn't quite what I was asking. What I'd like to know is what single hand spread would be equivalent to a 1x1 to 2x10 spread. Apparently it's not the same as 1-20?

Equivalent to 2x10...
Posted by Dog Hand on 21-Nov-2004 20:29:02 (#10930)

CanKen,

From your post:

E.g., if the bet would be $100 on 1 hand, I'd split $140 among 2 hands or $170 across 3 hands.

So you're spreading a total of 20 over two hands. According to the above, that's equivalent to betting
(20)*($100/$140) = 14.28571... on one hand. Round it off and say that 1x1 to 2x10 is roughly equivalent to one hand with a 1-14 spread.

Dog Hand

new cover,but title
Posted by eyesfor21 on 21-Nov-2004 18:35:51 (#10929)

looks great but Mayor the name is almost the same as-perhaps a different name,then its a go.

Blackjack in the Zone: Revised and Expanded Second Edition
by Rick "Night Train" Blaine
RGE 2002, $24.95, 117 Pages
[Purchase this book]

From RGE's site --
Posted by The Mayor on 21-Nov-2004 21:23:36 (#10931)

As for "Blackjack in the Zone" I have this from the rge21 web site:

NOTE: This book has gone out of print, but will be combined with
Blackjack Blueprint and reprinted under another title this fall.
We will carry the new printing when it is available.

Good cover...and clever of you
Posted by KennilworthKid on 22-Nov-2004 18:17:18 (#10934)

Good cover...and clever of you to build up a buzz on your book as well as get focus group feedback ;-).

I took a look at the contents page on the book's website. The section titles made me think...is Blackjack, and for that matter mathematics, an art or a science? I believe most colleges issue a bachelor of arts for mathematics? Is that right? As Blackjack is a game based on mathematical probabilities, the section titles using the work Art is appropriate.

Still though I would think that the card counting casino Blackjack experience has elements that are science (counting, betting and play variations) and others that are an art (one's act at the table, interactions with dealers, pit bosses and fellow players).

Whatever, I am looking forward to your book.

No conflict
Posted by KevinBlackwood on 22-Nov-2004 13:19:23 (#10932)

Rick Blaine's new book will be released through Huntington Press and Rick said zone would not be in the title this time.

its still best to be original *NM*
Posted by eyesfor21 on 22-Nov-2004 19:52:13 (#10935)

There's nothing new under the sun...
Posted by The Mayor on 22-Nov-2004 20:08:18 (#10936)

Certainly originality is great, but that is not as easy as it sounds.

For example, Kevin's new book will be "Play Blackjack Like the Pros" which sounds a bit like "Professional Blackjack" and/or "Playing Blackjack as a Business." I don't see any problem with his title, with using key words in a different sense or similar ideas in the title to previous titles. Indeed, you cannot copyright a title precisely because of this problem.

What about the title "Bringing down the house?" That's been used just a few thousand times.

So, in other words (as my wife says), build a bridge and get over it.

--Mayor

Speaking of bridge...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 22-Nov-2004 20:45:21 (#10937)

Bridge books have a similar problem. Chess too. Anybody who's buying these books already knows the bulk of what's in it. They're mostly looking for new ideas and the chance of finding one or two in the book is worth the risk of the price.

I like really advanced games books. You can write an advanced chess book about a particular opening and its defenses that will appeal to a Master, but a casual player will also recognize the moves and be able to apply them. It's different though with BJ because of the economy of scale. A black chip and a red chip player have very different priorities at the table.

Reminds me of old times...
Posted by The Mayor on 22-Nov-2004 21:53:12 (#10939)

I used to have a huge collection of chess and bridge books. I would order these thin expositions on different variations of openings and spend countless hours reading and memorizing variations. The slav, the Pelican, the schenveningen ... gad!

There there's bridge. I remember reading Root and Pavlicek's "Modern Bridge Coventions" for four hours straight when my friend was in the emergency room. The number of hours I spent playing online (at OKBridge) in 1992 and 1993 was like... I don't know... 6 hours a day for a year. Yellow Card. Precision. 2/1. Conventions. That was a whole lot of information but not much knowledge.

The amount of memorization required to become an expert at chess or bridge absolutely dwarfs the workload to become an advantage gambler, yet there are far more people who are chess experts and bridge masters than there are people who can win at blackjack. Go figure. I guess people don't like money.

--Mayor

The difference between these games
Posted by Sohrab on 23-Nov-2004 16:30:35 (#10942)

and AP gambling is

Bridge and chess experts seem smart. Blackjack experts seem like bad people, gamblers! We have to keep telling people card counting is legal? Because it feels like it is not legal.

Casinos confused on card counters *LINK*
Posted by zengrifter on 23-Nov-2004 22:38:04 (#10943)

November 22, 2004

Casino workers frequently confused on card counters

By Liz Benston
<benston@lasvegassun.com>
LAS VEGAS SUN

Jimmy Pine is an animated, stocky former singer with a vague resemblance to Tom Jones and a propensity to gamble.

But the Rhode Island resident is not welcome in many Las Vegas casinos, where he goes by the nickname "Young Jimmy Dime" and is tracked by surveillance and told to leave if he tries to sit down at a blackjack game.

But last week was a rare moment at the Golden Nugget, which rolled out the red carpet for Pine and about 40 other "advantage players" who participated in the newly crowned second season of the "World Series of Blackjack."

The players included Kevin Blackwood, the buttoned-up author of "The Counter," Joe Pane, a retired Brooklyn cop who is banned by more than 30 casinos in Las Vegas and "Hollywood Dave" Stann, a 25-year-old actor who dresses like a punk rocker and talks a blue streak to distract his competition. None are welcome at local blackjack tables but are rising stars on cable television.

... continued at LINK below -

Buttoned-up
Posted by KevinBlackwood on 24-Nov-2004 11:07:45 (#10953)

Interesting article, but it still shows some of the common misconceptions about who the winning players really are. Plus I'm still chuckling over being described as buttoned-up. Maybe I need to change my wardrobe.

Question for Mr. Blackwood
Posted by Virgin Counter on 01-Dec-2004 23:09:39 (#11037)

At what level of play are the casinos becoming paranoid about counting? If I am playing a $5 6D shoe with a 10x spread using KO, would this even merit attention by the house? Does a lower limit player such as me even have to worry? What are some strategies to use to avoid detection even at the low limit tables?

Not Mr Blackwood but
Posted by Victoria on 03-Dec-2004 12:45:31 (#11077)

Your question can not be simply answered because every place is different.
I can spread from $25-$300 in a place like the MGM, tell them I have no rewards card because they do not comp little betters like me hardly, and stay under their radar on relatively long sessions.
The same spread next door at the Tropicana can be used for a short session but without a card you would get a ton of attention, so I use one.
At a Coast Casino I would be escorted out the door in a short period of time.
The same spread at the "Big W" would last about 3 seconds and I would probably be mugged on my way out.
Know your opponent and incorporate a strategy, including a spread, that fits their profile. A $5-$50 spread will be easily tolerated in many high and middle end places (if you can find $5 tables) but in the lower end places once you are betting green you are now a high roller (that's red for the Western) and expect careful evaluation of your play.
Victoria

Taking a hit...
Posted by zengrifter on 23-Nov-2004 22:43:15 (#10944)

Taking a hit: New blackjack odds further tilt advantage toward the house
By Jeff Haney
<haney@lasvegassun.com>
LAS VEGAS SUN

Some oddball blackjack-like games in the Las Vegas area:

Super Fun 21: Blackjacks pay even money in this single-deck game, but there are also all kinds of crazy rules that benefit the player. Generally considered a carnival game rather than a form of mutant blackjack. (Note: Many gamblers use the term "carnival game" to describe casino table games that are unworthy of serious consideration or just plain goofy.)

Spanish 21: All of the 10s are removed from the deck, and there are lots of other weird rules as well. A carnival game that's unpopular with the public, for good reason.

Dealt-to-the-bottom:

Poker Palace in North Las Vegas offers a gimmicky single-deck game in which blackjacks pay even money, but the deck is dealt out all the way to the last card. With a paltry $50 maximum bet and a large house advantage, this game is considered a mere curiosity piece.

-- By Jeff Haney

Source material: Current Blackjack News (bj21.com)

Mario Puzo once compared the house's edge in a casino game to a sharp sword.

In modern-day Las Vegas, that sword has grown considerably sharper.

Many casinos now offer blackjack games in which blackjacks pay off at odds of 6-5 rather than the traditional 3-2 that is, $6 for a $5 bet rather than $7.50 for a $5 bet.

It might not seem like a significant issue to many players, who tend to think, "Hey, I got a blackjack; I'm getting paid anyway."

But that minor adjustment in the odds can make a major dent in a player's bankroll.

Take, for example, a blackjack player who uses proper "basic strategy" meaning he knows when to hit, stand, double down and split. Let's say he bets $10 a hand and plays 100 hands per hour.

At a decent six-deck blackjack game dealt from a shoe such as those at the Palms, the MGM Grand and elsewhere he would lose an average of $2.60 in that hour, according to computer analyses.

At a good single-deck blackjack game such as those at the Las Vegas Club and elsewhere he would lose an average of $1.80 in that hour.

At a game that pays 6-5 for blackjacks, however, our hero can expect to lose more than $14 an hour.

In other words, he will lose his money at least five times more quickly at a 6-5 game than at a shoe game, and eight times more quickly than at an old-fashioned single-deck game.

Fools die, indeed.

"This is incredibly stupid," said UNLV professor Bill Thompson, who studies gaming issues. "Everybody knows blackjacks pay 3-2. Unless they're giving out free bottles of whiskey to everyone who sits down at the table, I don't know why anybody would play this game."

Thompson, tongue in cheek, suggested 6-5 blackjack rode into Las Vegas on the same wave as topless swimming pools and sexy pirate shows on the Strip.

"Maybe the casinos think that everyone coming to Las Vegas is thinking below the belt instead of with their brains," Thompson said.

Other gambling experts say the change in odds is so extreme that the 6-5 game shouldn't even be called blackjack; that some casinos have been misleading in the way they promote the game; and that if the 6-5 game continues to proliferate, it could cause tourists to view Las Vegas casinos as unnecessarily greedy.

They also place some blame on the players, though, for failing to do at least a little bit of homework before approaching the green baize: If you play a 6-5 game and lose your money, well, to paraphrase gamblin' man Jimmy Buffett, it's your own damn fault.

Bad 'dream'

According to John Scarne's classic reference book, "New Complete Guide to Gambling," blackjacks have paid off at odds of 3-2 since 1912, when the American form of blackjack became popular in the betting parlors of Evansville, Ind.

Any game with substandard odds should not be called blackjack and should be avoided, says Don Schlesinger, author of "Blackjack Attack: Playing the Pros' Way."

"Everyone should avoid the (6-5) game because, quite simply, it isn't blackjack anymore," said Schlesinger, interviewed via telephone. "Naturals need to pay 3-2 for the average player to have a fair shot at winning money at the game."

There are 159 blackjack tables with the 6-5 odds at 24 casinos in the Las Vegas area, and the game is spreading quickly, according to the monthly tip sheet Current Blackjack News.

Al Rogers, manager of the website bj21.com and a semi-retired professional gambler, tried to persuade state officials to prohibit casinos from calling the 6-5 game "blackjack."

"People are being scammed, and I don't like to see them being ripped off," Rogers said in an interview at his office near Decatur Boulevard and Flamingo Road. "It's like the casinos are saying, 'If you're not a complete sucker, you can't play.' "

Rogers stated his case in an impassioned three-page letter to the Gaming Control Board and the Gaming Commission on March 28.

"If this game is allowed to continue, the Commission and/or the Board should require the casinos to post large, prominent signs reading 'Short Pay Table,' " Rogers wrote.

Rogers' plea was rejected.

"It falls within the guidelines" of acceptable games, said Keith Copher, the Gaming Control Board's chief of enforcement. "People are not happy about it; they'd rather have the higher 3-2 payout. But the 6-5 game does fall within the guidelines."

Some of the promotional campaigns linked to 6-5 blackjack have also drawn fire -- and ridicule -- from gamblers.

For instance, an advertisement on the electronic sign at Bally's on the Strip reads: "Now at Bally's and Paris ... By Popular Demand ... Single Deck Blackjack."

The promo neglects to inform the gaming public that it's 6-5 blackjack, the inferior game.

"I find it misleading," said Michael Shackleford, a Las Vegas-based gaming consultant. "I seriously doubt that many people are demanding a game like this."

Norm Wattenberger, a blackjack expert and creator of the "Casino Verite" computer software, cracked: "Soon we'll see, 'For extra excitement, both dealer cards are hidden!' "

Officials with Park Place Entertainment, the parent company of Bally's and Paris, did not respond to a request for comment for this story.

Also, in a recent promotional letter, Harrah's informed lucky gamblers that "every blackjack player's dream has come true ... yep, single deck games."

The letter went on to describe a game at The Rio in which blackjacks pay not 3-2, not 6-5, but even money. This game has the worst odds of any blackjack game currently being dealt anywhere in the world.

"Imagine a company so nefarious that it would purposely lie to players," Schlesinger said. "Harrah's should be ashamed of itself."

Officials with Harrah's Entertainment Inc., parent company of Harrah's and The Rio, did not respond to a request for comment for this story. Officials with Station Casinos, MGM MIRAGE and Mandalay Resort Group also did not respond to requests for comment on 6-5 blackjack.

Stanford Wong, author of the seminal "Professional Blackjack," said that while casino management has every right to offer 6-5 blackjack, the game should be portrayed accurately in promotional material.

"There have been instances of 6-5 not being presented honestly," Wong said. "The first casino ad I saw for 6-5 called it a 'whopping' 6-5, as if 6-5 were bigger than 3-2. Yes, 6 is bigger than 3, but 6-5 is not bigger than 3-2."

Anthony Curtis, publisher of the Las Vegas Advisor newsletter, took the side of the casinos' marketing departments.

Well, sort of.

"Things like demand and dreams coming true, that stuff can't be quantified," Curtis said. "It's hype. Casinos are allowed to hype their product.

"But, if they want to market it like that, they have to realize they're fair game for a guy like me who's going to call them on it and tell them they're full of (malarkey)."

Myth-information

Using basic strategy at the blackjack table does not erase the house's advantage, but it does afford the player a good run for his money. Which is why blackjack, rather than Casino War or the Big Six wheel, is by far the most popular table game in Nevada.

A second reason for blackjack's popularity is the perception that it's a game of skill, not luck. From the publication of Dr. Ed Thorp's "Beat the Dealer" in 1962 to the Caesars Palace scene in "Rain Man" to last year's "Bringing Down the House," a book that chronicled the adventures of a high-level, card-counting team, books and movies have promoted the mythology that savvy gamblers can win piles of money from the casinos at blackjack.

The reality is that for every proficient card counter, there are probably hundreds of poseurs who think they have the right stuff -- but as far as being a threat to the casino's bankroll, they're more like Kenny from "South Park" than the late Kenny Uston, the legendary card counter.

The blackjack games that pay 6-5 could eventually destroy that mythology, says Wattenberger, the gambling software developer.

"There is a symbiotic relationship between card counters and casinos," Wattenberger said. "They need each other. Forty years ago, before Thorp's book came out, table games were not nearly as popular as they are now. If it weren't for advantage players, the casinos would be wall-to-wall slots.

"The average person is never going to study (blackjack) enough to gain an advantage over the house -- but it makes them feel better knowing they're playing a game of skill. You lose that with the 6-5 games."

Curtis, the publisher and part-time star on the Travel Channel cable network, predicts players will eventually abandon 6-5 blackjack.

"Over time, bit by bit, person by person, the entire market is going to react as a single organism and people will move away from that game," Curtis said. "It will hurt the casinos in the long run."

A couple of generations ago, Horseshoe founder Benny Binion said that giving customers "good whiskey, good food and a good gamble" was the secret to his Las Vegas success.

Schlesinger, who is preparing to publish a third, revised edition of "Blackjack Attack," said 6-5 blackjack is an example of "a good gamble" becoming scarce in modern Las Vegas.

"Casino owners, in their infinite greed, seem to have no shame these days," Schlesinger said. "There are all sorts of side bets and rules variations that have been concocted to extract more money from the unwitting players."

Schlesinger did say the players should know better: "With books and websites that furnish accurate analyses of all the games, it's easy to become an informed, tough player."

Thompson, the UNLV professor, said players who are craving the single-deck experience can still satisfy their urge in Las Vegas.

The Horseshoe, for example, still offers one of the city's best single-deck games -- and no 6-5 tables.

"This is the way we've done business for 50 years, and there's no plan to change it anytime soon," a Horseshoe spokeswoman said.

As does Schlesinger, Shackleford, the gaming consultant, criticizes players for patronizing the 6-5 tables.

"To be honest, if I owned a casino, and my goal was to maximize profits, I might have some of these 6-5 blackjack games to capitalize on people's foolishness," Shackleford said.

Even so, Shackleford said, "I definitely think it's a public service to warn people about this game."

As Shackleford and many others will tell you, if you come across a table that pays 6-5 for blackjacks, don't worry about whether to hit, stand or double down.

Just split.

poor game
Posted by gorilla player on 23-Nov-2004 23:19:25 (#10945)

I was in Vegas this past June. Wife, brother, his wife and I were out sightseeing through the various strip casinos when we saw the "single-deck blackjack" sign over a table with a $10 minimum. We sat down to play for a few minutes before moving on up the strip, and on about the 3rd or 4th hand, I got a BJ. When I was paid off, I was a bit confused by getting a pair of red chips and two silver chips. I asked the dealer "didn't you make a mistake?" He said "no, BJ pays 6:5 on this game." I asked "how would one know this since it isn't on the felt surface anywhere. He took a small card out from under an ash tray and said "here" (it said "BJ pays 6:5".

We left. I then started watching more carefully and noticed that all the SD games I spotted were paying 6:5 although I did not hit anywhere near every casino in Vegas. But I thought the chintzy card was prett bad, and I noticed that in several major casinos, the signs were hardly conspicuous in where they were posted.

I had already learned to ask about "surrender", doubling, resplitting, etc rules, to avoid problems once the game started. Never occurred to me that it was also necessary to ask about the snapper payoff. I've only seen it at SD games so far, but I wonder if this will migrate further down into the multi-deck games if they can get away with it. When I asked about it and said "that's ridiculous, let's play somewhere else" one of the other players said "what's the problem with 6:5 payoff, it's better than 3:2 and we only have one deck so that 21 happens more often." I shook my head, and asked "so 3 halves is smaller than 6 fifths? - your elementary school teacher must be proud."

I know that several counters have pointed out that SF21 is beatable, but I can't stand the idea of learning a new BS and new playing rules (doubling on lots of cards, etc). I'll leave those for others to toast...

But I agree with others about the 6:5, it is bad, and the advertising is even worse... and the Nevada Gaming Commission is right in line with what I'd expect here, "hell with the "customers, the bigger the hold, the bigger the state's share (taxes)"

Of course, most people gamble driven by greed, so it's hardly a surprise to see the state driven by that same greed. :)

The scare-off
Posted by Gorgon on 28-Nov-2004 11:52:04 (#11004)

Those atrocious 6/5s are the beasts that induced me to design a counting system for Super Fun. This game is tailor-made for a pro because only a pro is going to put in the time and effort to master it. Not so with the reckie player. He'll be getting his clock cleaned no matter what one-decker he enters. Goodie. The casinos get what they want and maybe they will leave the rest of us unmolested.

not surprised...
Posted by gorilla player on 28-Nov-2004 20:48:33 (#11010)

It's expected that good players will learn to exploit new games. I've looked at SF21 a bit, but the BS is different enough from normal BJ and I don't play often enough to really try to stay boned up on both games. Ergo, I'm probably not going to play SF unless something goes really wrong with BJ. Of course, things are going really wrong in places. 50% pen ruins DD. 6:5 ruins a lot of SD. Shoes with shallow pen have huge variance. Etc.

Glad you are doing well at it however, perhaps it will be in my future if the casinos remain so paranoid about SD/DD games...

How Old Is This Article?
Posted by Dog Hand on 23-Nov-2004 23:19:57 (#10946)

Schlesinger, who is preparing to publish a third, revised edition of "Blackjack Attack," said 6-5 blackjack is an example of "a good gamble" becoming scarce in modern Las Vegas.

The Horseshoe, for example, still offers one of the city's best single-deck games -- and no 6-5 tables.

zengrifter,

These two quotes in particular left me wondering how old this information is. BJA's 3rd edition has been out for over half a year, and, sad to say, the vaunted Horsesh*t is indeed offering Crap Jack on all its SD tables.

Otherwise, a very good compilation of the whole sorry episode.

Dog Hand

crapjack
Posted by gorilla player on 24-Nov-2004 08:32:08 (#10947)

Not a bad name. Got it trademarked yet?

Coiner of "Crapjack" *LINK*
Posted by Dog Hand on 28-Nov-2004 17:10:09 (#11008)

gorilla player,

Much as I'd like to claim credit, the originator (as far as I know) of the term "crapjack" as applied to the 6:5 game is none other than Dallas Barrister, who coined the term in a GC post just over a year ago on November 26, 2003. Click the link below.

My own entry into the "Name the 6:5 Abomination" contest was "HiJack", since that's what the casino is doing to your $$$. Other notable offerings included CG21 (Corporate GREED 21), Gypjack, Short Pay Blackjack�, RipoffJack, and One Jack Off.

Maybe we need another naming contest, Mayor?

Dog Hand

Making bad games go away...
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 24-Nov-2004 10:02:26 (#10950)

is all about informing the public. If the public continues to be uninformed, this crap will continue for ever. Informing and teaching one person in every 1000 BJ players is just not going to fix the problem.

They are a number of people trying to do something but let's face it, it's just not enough exposure.

The problem is...
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 24-Nov-2004 10:52:39 (#10952)

... that the people who understand that 6:5 is a bad game and understand why are exactly the people they don't want in their casino. They hate us. They would be happy as could be if every one of us on this website never set foot on their property again. Even a basic strategy player at a game with good rules and good comps costs them money.

So us compaining about or boycotting the game doesn't help. In fact it might give them some positive reinforcement because if card counters are complaining about it, they know they're moving in the right direction. I'd rather play the game, use advanced tactics, spread like a MF and beat it. Seeing the hold drop on those tables is something that will get their attention.

won't work
Posted by eyesfor21 on 24-Nov-2004 11:34:01 (#10954)

yeapo the game is terrible,
spreading like a king still won't work,what you think all of a sudden
there is no heat jsut because its a bad game.
When its a good game is when they offer 2 to 1 for bjacks,only a selected
places offer this during promo's and the Mayor knows where too.

Just because
Posted by Tom on 24-Nov-2004 12:30:36 (#10955)

a gambler does not to play 6/5 crapjack does not mean he's a pro. You make it sound like casinos hate all 3/2 players and dont want their action because they wont play crapjack. Believe it or not,many ploppies and high rollers who lose tons of loot to casinos would not touch 6/5 with a ten foot pole and casinos are very pleased to have them. I see many lonely dealers at the 6/5 tables. To make a long story short Crapjack it certainly not a game ploppies and high rollers are waiting in line to play.

If...
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 24-Nov-2004 17:14:13 (#10957)

we could find a way to get the word out to a few million gamblers that the games mentioned above are the worst form of BJ, it could have an impact and could loosen the rules on those games. Question is: How is this best done in the easiest and least expensive way?

6/5 is it's worst enemy.
Posted by Tom on 25-Nov-2004 22:29:31 (#10978)

Crapjack to me is nothing but a nuisance(another carnival game),it is nowhere near(not even close) to the threat of when CSM's first appeared,NOW THAT WAS A NIGHTMARE. As we now know, csms are no longer a threat. Just as ploppies learned to hate CSMs for their losses,I believe the same will apply to Crapjack. In other words no bang for the buck and ploppy voodoo will cripple the game into check. Trying or attempting to convince card counters to beat this game using ridiculous spreads in order to reduce hold is a risky and unworthy adventure that wll never work. It's much easier to simply walk up to the table,buy $500 bucks in chips and leave while complaining out loud how you thought this was REGULAR blackjack. Congratulations, you've just decreased the hold with no risk and also spoke of disaproval for the bloody game! Maybe try it again on next shift:)!???

Making money with 6:5 !!!
Posted by gui on 26-Nov-2004 00:20:13 (#10979)

I got you!!,

Maybe we should sell T-
shirts with "no 6:5" logo on them

The Shoe From Hell
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 25-Nov-2004 02:11:38 (#10961)

I plan a trip for a 2% risk of ruin, the parameters being the advantage of the game, the number of hands I'm planning on playing, and the amount of money I have available on that trip. If I play once a week, that would mean on the average of about once a year I'll walk out of the casino spitting and cursing.

Fair enough. But I didn't plan on it happening today, the way it did.

First store- played about 3 hours. Limits were high, tables were crowded, and all the dealers were dealing like they were on drugs. Goofing off and chatting between cards, dawdling with their racks, giving me about 40-50 hands per hour and I was just in no mood for that crap given the other disadvantageous conditions. Walked out about 10 units down in 4 hours.

On to the second store. Also way too crowded, but I found a fast dealer giving good pen. Played 2 hours, up 5 units. Left the table to go home, got my play in for the night. But on the way out, I figured I had a little more left in me, maybe Wong into a shoe or two headed for the door.

Oh, to be able to take that decision back! Watched a shoe, Wonged in at +3 (HO2) about 1/4 of the way into the shoe. Then everything turned to garbage. The count went up and up, but I lost every hand but one. I walked away 200 units down. But not at the end of the shoe or the count. I had to walk away from a +11 count because I did not have a dollar left in my pocket.

Driving away from the casino realizing I didn't have a playing stake any more, and that it would take >40 hours of table time just to get back to where I began this night. And that it felt like I had paid my dues, and things were bound to get better, and a second later thinking, in a pig's ass they are. This is no less likely to happen on my next trip than it was on this one. Utterly stifling. But I'll be back.

Whats the Problem??
Posted by wongout on 25-Nov-2004 09:02:32 (#10965)

You jumped in at a +3 and rode it out. The rising count meant the you were betting into junk; although there was no way you could know that figuring that the high count meant the bricks were coming. You stayed put and kept chunking it out until tapping out. Thats 21 and happens all too often - I like that you kept dishing it out even though you were getting hammered. I only hope that as you cash drew down you lowered your bets to be able to cover a necessary split or double.

Tommorrow's another day so long as you have some benji's.

good luck

wong out

plus 3 was your problem *NM*
Posted by eyesfor21 on 25-Nov-2004 11:50:05 (#10970)

Good thing your tough as nails
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 25-Nov-2004 09:07:50 (#10966)

I have become accustomed to this kind of treatment from 6D lately also. One thing though, I learned the hard way only one time to always have plenty of Ben Franklins in my pocket so I never have to walk away from a big count and let the plopsters have all the goods. I assume you have now learned the same lesson.

Notice also how when the vacume gets turned on to your money, the other players just look at you like as if your so

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