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Threads 811 to 840

RE: 6D, How many hands are best when the C is a monster?
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 15-Dec-2003 23:26:19 (#5803)

I would assume the answer is 'as many as is possible'. I've heard other AP's disagree. This is an area on 6D, which baffles me.

For instance: (any issues other than math are aside for the moment) Let's say the situation is 1 on 1 with the D and the player is about mid pack with a monster C. Let's assume the house allows the player to play up to 4 hands and we also assume the shoe will be able to produce 3 rounds before the cut card shows up. So that would give 4 total rounds of most likely + cards (good cards); 4 hands times 4 rounds is 16 hands total during a high C. Also during which, the D gets only 4 hands. Therefore, 20 hands including the D's will flop on the table.

Now, scenario #2: The player is able to play this same high C situation 1 on 1 with the D but this time the player gets only 1 hand per round until 16 total hands are played including the D's. That's 8 for the P and 8 for the D. Subsequently, the player now knows the cut card is about to come out so he/she plays 4 hands on the last round, the D of course gets 1. That's 21 hands including the D's that flop on the table during the high C portion of the shoe.

With scenario #1, player gets 16 hands during the high C. The D gets only 4 hands. (20 hands total)

With scenario #2, player gets 12 hands during the high C. The D gets 9 hands. (21 hands total)

Based on scenario #1, I can't see why there is any reason NOT to play as many hands as is allowed when the C is high (all other issues aside i.e. 'heat').

Am I correct to believe that scenario #1 provides the best EV or am I missing something?

Stealth

Re: RE: 6D, How many hands are best when the C is a monster?
Posted by Learning to count on 17-Dec-2003 10:33:53 (#5814)

A high count deserves to be played. I think that bet size according to the ror factor is important. If you are playing at a low ror with a big BR then you have the possibility of a good EV. The other factor I feel that has to be taken into consideration is penetration. If this is a half cut shoe, a high count near the cut card could be good depending on what you have seen before hand. You may only get one round and the biguns may still be behind the cut card. I have seen shoes with sky rocketing counts up to the cut card and it was 1.5 standard six deck LV cut. So I would look to penetration first then your bet size. You could ride it out with smaller max bets for study sake I guess.

Re: RE: 6D, How many hands are best when the C is a monster?
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 17-Dec-2003 11:04:38 (#5818)

I don't know, I think the number of players at the table is a factor. Let's say there are two or three other players. You are going to have to share those nice cards with them until the count goes away, so you are better off playing two hands to make sure you get more than your fair share of them. Now if you are alone you are going to get to play them all anyway, so there is less of an advantage. My inclination in that situation is to play one hand, because that gives you a slightly lower lag in the count between making your betting decision and actually getting your cards.

Re: RE: 6D, How many hands are best when the C is a monster?
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 17-Dec-2003 14:22:47 (#5820)

Check out BJmath.com

do a search for "card eating" by a poster named steve on november 14 2003.

From this thread I have come to the conclusion that the answer to your question is to play heads up until the cut card is close, then play as many hands as your ROR will allow.

Don Schlesinger states:
"When you're alone, on a dollar-per-card-dealt basis, there is no extra advantage to betting more than one spot."

correct player states:
"It does not matter if you get the good cards or the dealer: One Ace or ten of the dealer as upcard is sufficient to make you loose maybe all of your spots. One good card can win all. The fight is not who gets more good cards...The precise effect is for example:
First you play 1 spot with 100$
Second you play 2 spots with 100$. You have 200$ at the table, but you need more cards, about 50%.
So in the first case you play 100$ per 2 cards, in the second you play 200$ per 3 cards, your EV is 1/3 more. If you rise to 3 spots with 100$ you play 300$ per 4 cards. The more spots you play the lower the effect of playing an additional spot.
So if you play head on at a table without any limit: always play only 1 spot.
With other players at the table it is different: For example 1 more player playing 1 spot. if you play 1 spot of 100$ you play 100$ per 3 cards. if you rise to 2 spots you play 200$ per 4 cards., your EV is 1/2 more.
Your EV will be always worse if you play with another player, but the only thing you can undertake is to play more spots."

You should go and read the entire thread.

Re: RE: 6D, How many hands are best when the C is a monster?
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 17-Dec-2003 22:43:11 (#5822)

I�m convinced mathematically that an AP should play as many hands as possible when there are other players at the table. The only reason I�m not yet believing the same when 1 on 1 is because I keep hearing it�s wrong. However, I am not yet able to understand why.

Isn�t the D considered a player also, regarding the �eating of cards�. Aren�t we competing with the D also to get more numbers of good cards than he/she. In other words; If I play 4 hands during a high C, I�m getting 4 times as many of the good cards as the D. Take for instance my scenarios 1 & 2 in my first post:

With scenario #1, AP gets 16 hands during the high C. The D gets only 4 hands. (AP plays 4 on 1 with 16 hands total - D gets 4 hands total)

With scenario #2, AP gets 12 hands during the high C. The D gets 9 hands. (AP plays 1 on 1 for a total of 8 hands then switches to 4 on 1 for the last round for a total of 12 hands - D gets 9 hands total)

Why should an AP allow the D in a high C situation to get just as many hands as the AP? In addition, scenario #1 provides 4 times better odds for the player to get more BJ�s which do pay 3 to 2. Doesn't it make sense to cut the D out of the loop as much as possible when the Aces and faces are about to flop?

I would assume also that if the AP played $100 per hand while 4 on 1, that the AP would otherwise be playing about $200 per hand if 1 on 1 for the same ratio of risk factor.

I have not yet taken the time to do any research on this subject at BJmath.com.

Stealth

Re: RE: 6D, How many hands are best when the C is a monster?
Posted by Shaggy18vw on 17-Dec-2003 22:53:04 (#5823)

I completely agree. I have always had the "gut" feeling that it was better to play more hands in the monster counts to have a better chance of getting more good cards, until I read that post on bjmath. Maybe the Mayor can shed some light on this subject.

All 7, Table Max
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 18-Dec-2003 09:07:36 (#5826)

if your BR permits.

Re: All 7, Table Max
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 18-Dec-2003 10:19:16 (#5833)

I think I�m more inclined to go with Rob on this one. This should be just pure math derived from a sim. I think The Mayor will be able to shed some light for us on the issue when he returns from his trip on 12-24.

Any other math guru's out there?

Stealth

Re: All 7, Table Max
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 18-Dec-2003 11:13:30 (#5836)

You will get people telling you to bet one spot to extend the period the count is high until you know the cut is coming, then cover the table to get max pene, which is again true. Fact is you are posting what IF questions for the sake of conversation I guess, which is not a bad thing. A nice way to learn things.

What IF Saddam was really Santa Claus, and now the world will have no Christmas? What IF they murder him?

For one, there is a simple math answer if enough info is available about the situation. For the other? Naaaaaaaaaa.

6D - high C - 1 hand vs. multi hands - 1 on 1
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 18-Dec-2003 23:27:40 (#5853)

I just want to know for sure if it makes sense mathematically to play as many spots as is possible when the C is really high while 1 on 1. Or should we play only one spot and only spread to more hands when the cut card is sure to come out? WHY???

No one has yet convinced me in any definitive manner, one way or the other. Maybe I�ll have to just accept that nobody is really sure of the answer. And that�s okay.

Even if I read it in one of the top BJ books, that we should only play one hand until the cut card is ready to show, I still would not be 100% on it. + I still want to know why.

Thanks all:

Stealth

Re: 6D - high C - 1 hand vs. multi hands - 1 on 1
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 19-Dec-2003 08:49:21 (#5857)

More hands means your overall risk comes down, which means you can bet more per TC. For example, win one hand, lose the second one. L2. W2. 1L,1BJ. I believe the proper way to bet head 2 head TC+15 6D would be ONE HAND coming down to the cut card bets full tilt. When you see the cut card showing, spread to cover the table with max bets to get deeper pene and hope the dealer has a 6 showing with a face under it. On the other hand when the count is sucking, spread to min hands to get them out of the way so you can stackemup again on one spot when the count goes up up up, and it burned burned burned........

RobMc

Frictionless Play
Posted by Dschddny on 16-Dec-2003 13:59:20 (#5811)

If you were hypothetically playing BJ where you were literally allowed to do whatever you wanted without being asked to leave (i.e. any bet spread, wonging in and out whenever you want, multiple hands at once), how exactly would you play?

Re: Frictionless Play
Posted by Learning to count on 17-Dec-2003 10:27:10 (#5813)

The best way to answer your question is to Summarize Stanford Wong "You have to find the gane that has deep pen...a bad game with excellent pen is a good game". Second you have to find liberal rules:DAS,S17,resplit aces, etc.. LOw heat is a gift from god these days. This and your question is a game in the big casino in the sky.

I wouldn't play.
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 17-Dec-2003 10:57:39 (#5817)

If I was literally allowed to do what ever I wanted -- I would not play.
I would simply take all the chips from the dealer's rack and go cash them in.
Why would I want to hang around a smokey casino all day?

Re: Frictionless Play
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 17-Dec-2003 23:10:37 (#5824)

1) I'd have myself a large bank roll so I could bet big.
2) I'd never put any $ out unless the TC was 3 or better.
3) I�d let the gorgeous cocktail girls know that I was counting and if they treated me well, they might get to share in the wealth.
4) I�d split face cards and double soft 19 & 20 whenever the TC index was correct for the play.
5) I�d give lessons for a large fee while at the table.
6) I�d tell the stupid ploppies to stop whining, stop their stupid ploppy beliefs, learn to play the game and leave me alone .

Dream - Dream - Dream

Depends on the Rules
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 18-Dec-2003 09:17:15 (#5827)

8 deck shuffled after ever hand? Stay home.
1 deck stand ALL 17 DOA DAS 75% pene? hehehehe

How about a continuous 400% bonus 1x thru at 400 hands per hour, no max bet size, and when you were done, you could pull the money then re depo it again??

double hehehehe

Re: Frictionless Play
Posted by SammyBoy on 18-Dec-2003 09:45:28 (#5832)

I would keep my head as low to the table as possible to get a good peek at the hole card everytime and I would have the entire table to myself. Plus it would be a nonsmoking casino.

A serious answer
Posted by Sonny on 18-Dec-2003 10:35:58 (#5835)

To be honest, if I could find my "dream game" I would play the same way I do now. I would find a decent uncrowded SD game and hit it with a 1-40 spread, Wonging out for bathroom breaks and returning during the first round after the shuffle. Once I see the first round of cards I will decide, based on the count, if I will play or wait for the next shuffle. I would bet at the same level in order to preserve my ROR.

However, there are a few things I would do differently:

1) I would play ALL THE TIME! I mean CONSTANTLY!! I would show up in the morning and stay until nighttime.

2) I would increase my betting unit as my bankroll grew. The spread that I use now only works because it is for very low stakes. If I were to spread 1-40 in green, that would be quite a bit more noticeable! But, since there is no heat at this "dream game", I would do it as long as my ROR was acceptable.

3) There would be no need for BP team play since we can get away with any spread we want, although I would consider a teammate for other advantage opportunities. Teammates can be good for spooking other player's cards when you can't see them, or card eating.

4) I like Sammy's idea about always seeing the hole card, but in my "dream game" the dealer would always flash it for me. He would ask "Did you catch that?" as he tucked it away. If I didn't, he would flip the cards so that the upcard was now the holecard.

-Sonny-

Re: Frictionless Play
Posted by BlackJackHack on 18-Dec-2003 16:54:55 (#5848)

This question is not as ridiculous or academic as it might seem. There are many places overseas where there is absolutely no heat. Since these are all shoe games, you need to take advantage by spreading very big (1-40?), and leaving during all neg counts. If conditions permit, only wong in for plus counts (sometimes not possible in small casinos).

What is the best text for tournament play? *NM*
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 17-Dec-2003 12:14:26 (#5819)

Wong's Tourney Strat Book *NM*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 18-Dec-2003 08:59:20 (#5825)

Always betting max?
Posted by Dschddny on 18-Dec-2003 13:47:53 (#5842)

The standard practice for betting when counting cards is to increase your
bet as the count gets higher (more positive). For example, if you're
betting between 5 and 25, you would bet 5 when the count is less than 0 or
less, 10 when the count is 1, 15 when the count is 2, 20 when the count is
3, and 25 when the count is 4 or more. Does this strategy really make
sense?

When the count is less than 1, the dealer has the advantage. When the count
is 1, the player and dealer are even (no advantage). When the count is 2,
the player has a .5% advantage. When the count is 3, the player has a 1%
advantage. And so on, increasing the player advantage by .5% for every
increment of 1.

My thought is, why do you need to wait until the count is very high before
jumping up to your maximum bet? If you have any advantage at all (even just
.5% at a count of 2), why not bet as much as you can (i.e. your max)? If you have any advantage at all, shouldn't you bet as much as possible to benefit from that advantage? Why not bet your minimum when the dealer has the advantage, and bet your maximum when you have the advantage?

Proportional Betting
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 18-Dec-2003 16:38:30 (#5846)

Good Question,
Read up on Kelly betting. This idea is simply based on betting a proportion of your bankroll with respect to your advantage. If the count is +2 and you have approx. a 1% advantage, you should bet 1% of your bankroll. (This is called full kelly betting). A lot of people will recommend half kelly betting. An example would be at a 1% advantage, betting .5% of your bankroll. The idea behind kelly betting is that it is the fastest way to increase your bank with the least risk of ruin.

Some things to make not of. It is impossible to bet a negative amount. i.e. when you have a disadvantage, the kelly concept says to bet -% of your BR. Also the idea is to re-evaluate your BR for each bet. This is also not practical. Partly because you have to bet in full dollar increments (you can't bet $42.50 on a hand.) Also partly because this is too much math to do on the fly... Let's see, by BR is down $100 from where I started, so 1% of $9900 is... too much work.

Typically, a player will set up a betting schedule based on their bankroll for a given trip. Only if they have a large swing + or -, will they re-evaluate the betting based on their BR.

Back to your question, the reason you don't bet max at any advantage you have is because you will lose your shirt.

Re: Proportional Betting
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 19-Dec-2003 00:13:00 (#5855)

Back to your question, the reason you don't bet max at any advantage you have is because you will lose your shirt.

This is not necessarily so. Remember, the player still has the advantage. However, it is highly risky given the variance swings of the game. Therefore, still not a good idea to play only max or min. (not considering heat)

Re: Always betting max?
Posted by Sonny on 18-Dec-2003 17:25:15 (#5849)

> If you have any advantage at all, shouldn't you bet as much as possible to
> benefit from that advantage? Why not bet your minimum when the dealer has the
> advantage, and bet your maximum when you have the advantage?

One word, VARIANCE! If you always bet your max with any advantage, the swings will be huge. The reason you bet an amount proportional to your advantage is to keep your variance low while keeping you EV high. There will always be a compromise between risk and reward. It is up to the player to optimize his bet spread in order to maximize earnings while maintaining an acceptable level of risk.

Another word, COVER! Often times a high stakes player will play with a very small spread and accept the variance since a higher spread would get them too much heat. However, if you were using a 1-4 spread and constantly jumping from 1 unit to 4 units and back, you would get heat at any level of play.

-Sonny-

Wong In and Out during a shoe
Posted by Dschddny on 18-Dec-2003 13:50:32 (#5843)

I hear many people say that they Wong In when they see that the count is positive, and then Wong Out (i.e. leave the table) when the count goes negative. When the count goes negative, why not stay for the rest of the shoe (without getting up) and wait for the count to go positive again?

Does anyone do this?

Re: Wong In and Out during a shoe
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 18-Dec-2003 16:41:03 (#5847)

Most places don't like it when players sit out hands and stay at the table. If you can "act" the part of the superstitious gambler, you may be able to get away with this. Also, by leaving, you may be able to go right to another shoe that just started. This way you are not spending a lot of your time watching shuffles, but playing positive counts.

Re: Wong In and Out during a shoe
Posted by Victoria on 18-Dec-2003 19:38:31 (#5850)

It depends on several factors.
If the shoe is close to its end, then I will stay for the start of the next shoe, but miss a hand or two.
If the shoe has a ways to go but is negative quite a bit the chances of it going up enough to get a heavy bet out there is less, and not worth playing a bunch of neg EV hands just for that slight chance. So leave, take a break, or go to another pit.
You also have to take into consideration how often you have been wonging in this same casino and the heat or lack of there. You can get away with a ton of wonging in a big place with many different pits In a one or two pit place the critters will notice at some point.
The dealers cards can often give you an excuse to look like a ploppy and wong out. She gets a blackjack or hits 16 and pulls a five, then you in your frustrated ploppy act can sit out a hand or two. I do this at times, and the pit and the other players believe it is to change the mythical flow. Generally done near the end of the shoe.

Re: Wong In and Out during a shoe
Posted by revereman on 18-Dec-2003 20:48:51 (#5852)

I do often just sit there after the count goes negative and it is a BIG MISTAKE. The reason it is a mistake is that "normal" players don't do it. After a "normal" player loses x number of hands in a row, he angrily scoops up his chips and leaves the table. You really want to act as a "normal" player does and the best way to do that is to observe how they act. I don't often always just sit through a negative count. I do often get up. Don't make excuses when you get up--again normal players don't do that. Just ask them to hold your spot. As any experienced player will tell you--the counting is the easy part, the hard part is being allowed to play. So observe other players and act as they do. But, more often than not, don't play like they do.

Re: Wong In and Out during a shoe
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 18-Dec-2003 23:54:21 (#5854)

If I'm wonging out a lot I sometimes wong back into the same cold shoe and catch the last hand with a minimum bet as a cover move. Of course, it's a play in the blind move but I do at least assume that the C is most likely still in the cool numbers area while also using a conservative play strategy just to get through it.

Re: Wong In and Out during a shoe
Posted by revereman on 19-Dec-2003 11:00:44 (#5860)

Excellent point. I didn't cover every scenario in my post. I do the same thing sometimes, come back in at the end of the show with a minimum bet. The main point though is observe how others act and try to act like them. Most players will not sit at a table and not play. Although I have to say that some other players do start sitting out a little after I do when they see everyone getting killed. On the other hand, it is very painful sitting out in a very negative count and the dealer busts hand after hand. More often than not, the players do get killed in the highly negative counts. Of course, there are the times when we all get killed in highly positive counts. Too bad it's not so simple that you win in positive counts and lose in negative counts.

Re: Wong In and Out during a shoe
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 19-Dec-2003 08:36:27 (#5856)

If the casino is not busy you can get away with it to a point. Someone mentioned not watching the shuffle, which is fine if you don't shuffle track. If its a SD or DD joint, just get up and start on a new dealer, but I suggest you watch the shuffle on 6 and 8D, even if you don't understand STing. It's like watching Bruce Lee with his nunchuks. Sooner or later you'll be swinging your own just as fast.

Rob McLee
"fukawwwwwwwwwwww"

Other tables nearby?
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 19-Dec-2003 08:57:29 (#5858)

It is a better use of your time to start backcounting a table that has just shuffled, hoping the count will go positive, than hoping a negative shoe will go positive.

Better wong out and go to the next table, rather than sit at a negative shoe.
Time is money.

Re: Wong In and Out during a shoe
Posted by ZOD on 20-Dec-2003 09:23:46 (#5867)

I often find myself sitting out hands to catch a "call", take a restroom break, visit with the lovely cocktail waitress, or even because I've lost a few in a row. Funny how all these things seem to happen during negative counts.
Best...
ZOD

Re: Wong In and Out during a shoe
Posted by wongout on 21-Dec-2003 07:36:50 (#5871)

I dont have much more to add than what has already been said but somehow I feel an obligation to at least post something on this topic :). Two biggest problems with sitting at a shoe waiting for the shuffle are:

-possibly cover and angering other players (minor concern), and

-down time for your business (major problem).

If there are no other tables starting up then sitting around doesnt cost you anything but you are better off from a time management standpoint to get your but up and start backcounting another table. This is not much of a factor of course if you are in the last hand of the shoe.

wong out

LOST my TAIL in Tunica!
Posted by phantom007 on 20-Dec-2003 20:24:09 (#5868)

During my last Tunica trip, "I lost my tail!" This was a "drive-through" trip, in that same was mostly business, and little pleasure, or BJ, for that matter.

As regarding BJ/AP issues:

---HS-DD...($250.)...about 5 hrs. Pen. to about 65-70%. Tipping did NOT help pen. Started with #2 hands of "medium" bets", pressing both in +Counts, dropping to #1 hand of a "little bet" as appropriate.

---HS-Poker...($250.)...about 3 hours...Where were you when Saddam was captured??? I was in the HS Poker Room!!!

---HS-SD...+$700....1 hr. Pen. N/A..."Rounds of" totally applicable. +EV largely due to getting DD "8's" against Dealer 6's, again and again, when the COUNT called for same.

NET for TRIP = $200. cash + circa. $300. "Comps" = $500.

However, the point of this post is that "I LOST MY TAIL", and I did, and it really pisses me off!

My "One Card" has accumulated more Comp. $ than my average trip B/R. Using same for a "free meal" at GS, I ordered my favorite...Twin Australian Lobster Tails. When the waiter brought me my dinner, he realized that the "twin" had been halved!!!....one of my Lobster tails was missing! He was polite and apologetic and CONCERNED, because I always ask for HIM (as my waiter), tip him very well, etc.

My Waiter went back to the "Kitchen", then returned, stating that "all of the people in the back" are having a big laugh, that SOMEONE STOLE YOUR TAIL! Not misplaced, lost, placed on the wrong plate, etc. JUST STOLE!...AND IT WAS FUNNY!

While I did get the meal I ordered, I had to wait an additional 1/2 hour to get same...I guess that since it was "free", I should not BITCH, but it bothers me that Casino Kitchen Security is so lax that MY TAIL GOT STOLEN...maybe Casino's should place their cameras in the KITCHEN!

phantom007.

Way 2 go!
Posted by SammyBoy on 20-Dec-2003 21:08:29 (#5869)

Glad to hear the HS still has a good SD game.

Poker Room Conditions?
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 21-Dec-2003 19:42:49 (#5873)

Drunks playing any two cards?
Rocks that you occasionally check to see if still breathing?

What games/limits do they offer?

HS Poker
Posted by phantom007 on 24-Dec-2003 08:48:18 (#5891)

The Poker Room in HS-Tunica has approximately 12-14 tables...pretty much all open during afternoon and evening hours....often down to 3-4 at 4am. Games are mostly Texas Hold'em, with a few 7-stud. Ranges that I have seen are $2-4, to $15-30. Since I am not a regular Poker player, I am guessing but likely correct that they have higher limit games at some times.

During tournaments, other games are offered (Omaha, Hi-lo, etc.), though I have not seen these during regular hours. HS also has an "upstairs" poker room that they use for tourney's...I do not know if it is open otherwise.

At my level ($3-6), comps consist of free drinks and "snackbar". Since I usually get room comps for BJ play, I have just never asked as regarding poker.

Regarding Player quality, seems to be lots of "Regulars" who know each other, and who play pretty tight, plus the usual tourists and beginners who keep the game interesting.

phantom007.

Hahaha!!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 22-Dec-2003 08:42:11 (#5875)

Nice win bro. Hope those tails were juicy fat boys, not extra large shrimp size tails all dried out and rubbery like.

Lard tundrin JESUS, the tings they tries ta pass off as lobby tails me lads!

Captain Hindgrinder

Disguising Play
Posted by Kevin on 21-Dec-2003 03:27:06 (#5870)

A lot of people talk on this web site on how they disguise their play by acting like other people when on the tables (like leaving when it is a minus count and the dealer wins the next hand or pulls a BJ.) What you have to understand is once you start playing perfect basic stradegy you are already giving yourself away. Good basic stradegy is rarely found and as soon as you hit your soft 18 against a 9 or 10 or hit your 12 vs a dealer 3 is like telling a percentage of dealers and majority of pit supervisors that your a real player dispite your great acting abilities. Here some tips I've learned over the years.

1) If you find a dealer that you were able to have a large bet fluxation without getting notice would be one to follow. ( make him or her like you)

2) New dealers dont know anything about basic stradegy and even though they a are slow and more hands mean more money, they also make more mistakes which will make up for the lack of hands out.

3) Pit Supervisors are usually one of two places. At their little podium or where the action is, So try not to be at either of those two places.

4) A busy night at the casino is a good night at the casino. Do I need to explain?

5) If you have basic stradegy mastered and a card count and you go to one place more than once every month you are probally going there to often.

I hope these tips are useful and anything added or disputed would be appreciated.

Re: Disgusting Post!
Posted by phantom007 on 25-Dec-2003 02:04:38 (#5898)

Mr. Kevin, you give advice based on "tips I've learned over the years". I disagree on many issues. Forgive me for my lack of computer skills...I cannot "repost" your statements, then respond, therefore:

1. "Once you start playing perfect Basic Strategy, you are giving yourself away".....WRONG!.....perfect BS gives the house an advantage! Many ploppy's play perfect 6D BS, on SD and DD. I often play with an "Advice Card" that I have purchased in EACH casino's gift shop, showing me perfect BS play. When others ask ME for advice, I just show them the card! Works pretty good until I don't split A's against 2 at TC=-8, but what the hell.

Certainly, Kevin, you point out plays that Mr. Ian Anderson suggests in "Burning the Tables" suggests that we sacrifice....those of us with limited bankrolls/time just have to get Greedy, and play appropriately.

2. "Chase tolerant Dealers"...WRONG!...Yes, We often find Dealers who, with proper tipping, are 'understanding'....IMHO, looks both STUPID and OBVIOUS to follow same from a $25 Table, to a $5 Table, then to a $100 Table. When I have a choice, I try to play at Stores wherein, less breaks, the same Dealer has the same table throughout his/her shift. If you tip properly, "Break Dealers", via whispers, nods, and/or flat-out exclaimations, are often helpful to your cause as well.

3. "Seek NEW Dealers"...WRONG!....their mistakes go both ways! Their over-pays will NOT make up for under-pays and/or LESS hands/hr. I am already counting cards, and often, 1-2 Side-counts...the last thing I want to be pre-occupied with is accurate pay-offs...certainly, I will visually check each p/o, but I do not want to have to COUNT each one!

4. "PC's Location"...DO NOT TOTALLY DISAGREE...always best to be a Red-Green player in a sea of Black-Purple! However, if Solo, or with other RG's, just as soon have PC at my side, showing me pictures of kids, listening to his/her marital problems, etc. Yes, I will BLOW ALL Side-Counts, and have to drop back to a "AT A GLANCE" approach for CC'ing, but I will keep a small +EV, AND I WILL KEEP PLAYING!

5. "Busy Casino Night = Good Casino Night"...NOT ALWAYS! Yes, easy to hide in the crowd...#30 hands/hour, though, even with EXPERT play, would create a +EV so LOW that I would likely revert back to PROGRESSIVE CRAPS!

6. "Good Players should not go to same Casino more than once per month"...OK, I AGREE with this one, in theory, but it kind of depends on "NET Results".

In Closing, Mr. Kevin, you asked for additions and/or disputes of your statements. I have provided same.

In return, Sir, please identify what Casino that you represent. I want to play there!

phantom007.

Re: Disgusting Post!
Posted by Sonny on 26-Dec-2003 11:23:12 (#5903)

> I often play with an "Advice Card" that I have purchased in EACH casino's gift
> shop, showing me perfect BS play. When others ask ME for advice, I just show
> them the card! Works pretty good until I don't split A's against 2 at TC=-8,
> but what the hell.

I love using this trick too. With any BS deviations, just shake your head at the card and say "This thing must be wrong!" or "I'm not going to hit my 16 with this much money on the table! I'll play it safe." You will look like the average hunch player.

> those of us with limited bankrolls/time just have to get Greedy, and play
> appropriately.

Very true. I've had dealers call out "Doubling on 18" when I had A,7 vs 6, but the pit doesn't even care. I've found that most pits don't care about much of what goes on at the tables. If you buy in small enough they simply wave off the "Changing $xx" call. Most of the time they don't even turn their heads when they hear "Checks Play!" I have found plenty of places where you don't need any camo at all (at least at the red/green chip level). Why bother?

> If you tip properly, "Break Dealers", via whispers, nods, and/or flat-out
> exclaimations, are often helpful to your cause as well.

When a new dealer takes over they will usually ask how everyone is doing. I will often point the tips behind the discard tray and say something like "Well, Joe was doing better than me! Maybe if I hit a good streak we can both make as much as him!" I will say this even if all the tips were given by someone else!

> "Seek NEW Dealers"...WRONG!....their mistakes go both ways!

Too true. Just two weeks ago a had a huge problem with this. I bought in for $60. I handed the dealer three $20 bills. He called out "Changing $60" and proceeded to slide me $30 in chips. Needless to say, the PB was hounding the table for the rest of her shift.

Again last week I colored up $85 in chips at the table. The dealer neatly made 3 stacks of $25 in reds and put the other two next to it. He looked it all over, thought about it for a minute, and slid me one green along with the two reds. Somehow a stack of five $5 chips is worth about $8.33 in his mind. I double checked the rack but didn't see any $1.67 chips.

> ...just as soon have PC at my side, showing me pictures of kids, listening to
> his/her marital problems, etc.

Although having a PC next to me always makes me nervous, it can be a good thing if you know how to handle it. At least you will know where they are and where they're looking. This is where having a partner can come in handy. They can engage the PC and keep their attention away from your bets. It's the next best thing to tying a bell around their necks (which I don't recommend).

> "Busy Casino Night = Good Casino Night"...NOT ALWAYS!

This really depends on the player's playing style. In a crowded casino it would be easier to "Wong around" (even in and out of pitch games). If you're stuck with shoe games this might be your best approach.

> "Good Players should not go to same Casino more than once per month"

I completely disagree. One of my favorite spots to play lets me get away with murder simply because they know me. I know the pit and many of the dealers by name. I even know a few of the regular players there. The dealers don't always call out everything because they know that I will occasionally tip them when the count is high. The pit doesn't even watch me play becuase they have already pegged me as one of their "regulars".

Although most of Kevin's advice looks good on paper (or "on monitor"), actual casino experience will teach you that there are many ways to overcome these problems with better results. You just have to get your feet wet in order to find the best way to get them dry.

-Sonny-

Re: Disgusting Post!
Posted by Kevin on 28-Dec-2003 13:39:08 (#5928)

I appreciate your critisism and guess depending on casino's and personal experience everyone is going to have different views on these issues. The basic stradegy card is kind of clever but if the pit bosses aren't even turning their head on you when doubling on soft 18 or when cheques in play then you dont need to disguise your play anyways. Please let me know where a regular can come in count cards and play good basic stradegy and the pit bosses dont even turn a head. Sounds like a casino I want to play at. But as far as places that do sweat the action I think my tips can be usueful. And if you cant keep an accurate count and make sure the dealer is paying you correctly then you need practice before you bet any real money anyways.

Re: Disgusting Post!
Posted by Sonny on 28-Dec-2003 17:11:46 (#5930)

> I appreciate your critisism and guess depending on casino's and personal
> experience everyone is going to have different views on these issues.

Yes. Each casino will have different games and different levels of heat. It is every player's job to choose which casinos are right for his/her playing style. Different players will fit in at certain clubs more than others. However, a good counter can fit in wherever he wants.

> Please let me know where a regular can come in count cards and play good
> basic stradegy and the pit bosses dont even turn a head. Sounds like a casino
> I want to play at.

It is!

Since I am a low stakes player, I prefer the smaller clubs in Vegas. Have you ever been to the Klondike, Bighorn, or Mahoney's Silver Nugget? These places usually only have 2-3 tables open at a time, so you get to meet and schmooze with the regulars constantly. They always have $2-$3 minimums, and the dealers (and sometimes pit crew) are often either new employees who don't know the ropes yet or apathetic old-timers who have worked there so long that they gave up all hope of ever leaving. Either way, they're just trying to get through the day and looking for anybody they can joke around with to help pass the time. I've heard of bosses who constantly talk to counters in order to distract them from counting, but counters distracting bosses was new to me!

Also, the Bighorn offers late surrender and double down on ANY NUMBER of cards! This means that if you are dealt 3,2 and hit for an A and 5, you can now double down with a nice big count! Most people (even the locals) don't know about this. A good counter does his research!

Be careful, though. Some of the places I mentioned are were where I had problems buying in and coloring up. Since you like untrained dealers so much, you should LOVE these places! Often times you can convince them to show you the burn card or deal deeper into the deck because they don't know any better. I would be cautious at the Klondike though. Their pit is unaware but they have one dealer who will shuffle up on you (the only time I've ever seen counter measures). Again, do your research to find out which dealers are worthwhile.

-Sonny-

P.S.- If you ever go to Mahoney's, look up for the eye-in-the-sky...or should I say, the hole-cut-in-the-ceiling-with-a-video-camera-sticking-out. It's comical.

Re: Disgusting Post!
Posted by Kevin on 24-Jan-2004 04:08:20 (#6352)

This is a great post and I appreciate it. Im from Northern Cal so I usually have to go to Reno to avoid the Indian Casino 6 decks. To me anything after two decks is like fishing waiting for a bite. I plan on taking a vacation to LV and will take your advice... THANKS

Re: Disgusting Post!
Posted by Sonny on 25-Jan-2004 22:45:20 (#6379)

> Im from Northern Cal so I usually have to go to Reno to avoid the Indian
> Casino 6 decks.

I've only been to Reno once. I liked the town a lot, but didn't find many games I wanted to play. I didn't look very hard though. Sparks, on the other hand, was heavenly.

> To me anything after two decks is like fishing waiting for a bite.

Very well said! I hate losing several big bets and knowing that I may not get another chance to win them back for another hour or so. It just feels like too much wasted time to me.

> I plan on taking a vacation to LV and will take your advice... THANKS

Good luck. Let us know how it goes!

-Sonny-

YOU SAY PLAYERS CARDS,yeah right you can not even order a pizza
Posted by eyes for 21 on 21-Dec-2003 17:33:28 (#5872)

Subject: Ordering Pizza in 2008 Operator: "Thank you for calling Pizza Hut. May I have your national ID number?"
Customer: "Hi, I'd like to place an order."
Operator: "May I have your NIDN first, sir?"
Customer: "My National ID Number, yeah, hold on, eh, it's
6102049998-45-54610."
Operator: "Thank you, Mr. Sheehan. I see you live at 1742 Meadowland Drive, and the phone number's 494-2366. Your office number over at Lincoln Insurance is 745-2302 and your cell number's 266-2566. Which number are you calling from, sir?"
Customer: "Huh? I'm at home. Where d'ya get all this information?"
Operator: "We're wired into the system, sir."
Customer: (Sighs) "Oh, well, I'd like to order a couple of your All-Meat Special pizzas."
Operator: "I don't think that's a good idea, sir."
Customer: "Whaddya mean?"
Operator: "Sir, your medical records indicate that you've got very high blood pressure and extremely high cholesterol. Your National Health Care provider won't allow such an unhealthy choice."
Customer: "Damn. What do you recommend, then?"
Operator: "You might try our low-fat Soybean Pizza. I'm sure you'll like it."
Customer: "What makes you think I'd like something like that?"
Operator: "Well, you checked out 'Gourmet Soybean Recipes' from your local library last week, sir. That's why I made the suggestion."
Customer: "All right, all right. Give me two family-sized ones, then."
Operator: "That should be plenty for you, your wife and your four kids, sir. Your total is $49.99."
Customer: "Lemme give you my credit card number."
Operator: "I'm sorry sir, but I'm afraid you'll have to pay in cash.
Your credit card balance is over its limit."
Customer: "I'll run over to the ATM and get some cash before your driver gets here."
Operator: "That won't work either, sir. Your checking account's overdrawn."
Customer: "Never mind. Just send the pizzas. I'll have the cash ready.
How long will it take?"
Operator: "We're running a little behind, sir. It'll be about 45 minutes, sir. If you're in a hurry you might want to pick 'em up while you're out getting the cash, but carrying pizzas on a motorcycle can be a little awkward."
Customer: "How the hell do you know I'm riding a bike?"
Operator: "It says here you're in arrears on your car payments, so your car got repo'ed. But your Harley's paid up.
Customer: "@#%/$@&?#!"
Operator: "I'd advise watching your language, sir. You've already got a July 2006 conviction for cussing out a cop."
Customer: (Speechless)
Operator: "Will there be anything else, sir?"
Customer: "Yes, I have a coupon for a free 2 liter of Coke".
Operator: "I'm sorry sir, but our ad's exclusionary clause prevents us from offering free soda to diabetics."

John Ashcroft would love it *NM*
Posted by LVBear584 on 22-Dec-2003 22:15:58 (#5879)

Counter Profiling
Posted by CCR on 21-Dec-2003 19:50:08 (#5874)

Does the race or gender of the suspected counter factor into a casino's decision to ban a player? Are casinos more reluctant to ban suspected counters who are minorites or women as opposed to white males? Especially with the way many hotels cater/pander to the Asian gaming market, it seems that an Asian counter playing some high $$$ would be less likely to be backed off then a white male counter. Also, with the threat of discimination charges looming over some hotels are they more reluctant to toss minorites in general who are suspected of counting?

Re: Counter Profiling
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 23-Dec-2003 14:32:10 (#5884)

I have stated previously that prejudice can work against the casino as much as it can against the player. I believe I was speaking to Victoria about the fact that being a woman can work to her advantage simply because the chuavinist attitude of casino persons could help her slip under the radar. I will not get into the particular characteristics of different minorities and how they can use them to their advantage since it may be mistaken as rude behaviour. I live in one of the most cosmopolitian multicultural cities on this planet, and the diversity is often overwhelming. One day we will all be one color, and possibly all speak the same language. There will continue to be pockets that remain out of touch, but in time, there will be no minorities. Now I wish I could amalgamate all the existing charities! dreaming again.........

Sooner or later they will discover the REAL truth. That you are a TRUE minority. You are an advantage player, the smallest group of people in the world, my brothers and sisters.

Re: Counter Profiling
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 30-Dec-2003 03:21:14 (#5945)

OK Rob if you won't say it I will. Unfortunately a lot of the majority associate being a Hispanic or Black person with low intelligence and would not suspect them of being able to count, and associate being White or Asian with high intelligence and being capable of counting. It's a bunch of crap. But we of all people have seen our share of illogical thinking in casinos, haven't we? They might also think that a female doesn't have the mathematical ability or the guts to count. Now the second part there, not to upset anybody, but there is more of a reason to believe that. There is very little difference between the men of the different races, but the differences between men and women are really there, and it's true that most (but not all) women shun risk-taking behavior.

Either way, whatever advantage you have in escaping detection, you've got to use it. Me, I'm the size of the average NFL linebacker, so I drink like a fish and act drunk, but in reality the 4 or 5 martinis I have had have barely affected me. I usually wear a jacket and/or tie, and play the raconteur; talk to the other players, the pit people, dealer, other players, even the waitress can be used to your advantage. And at the same time you are giving them a little bit of valuable advice, so it is win-win. Except for the casino of course.

Christmas Eve. I thought the casino would be empty- no way- they specialize in Asian entertainment on the Christian holidays so the casino was jam-packed with Oriental folk. I finally got a seat at a $25 table, and was the only Occidental at the pit, let alone the table. After playing a little while, the little old Korean lady sitting next to me nudged me on the leg, smiled broadly, and gave me a huge wink. You never can tell, can you?

Re: Counter Profiling
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 30-Dec-2003 12:41:06 (#5950)

I enjoyed your post immensely. You said what you thought should be said in the right fashion. Much of what we are depends on how we have been brought up and exposed to, and what we chose to add or take away from who we want to be. There are as many anomalies in sociology as there are typical characteristics in this race or that culture. Each person is unique, yet deserves to be treated the same way as anyone else does. This is where the casino fails, and often where we fail as we pigeon hole one and other. As an AP, we have to think beyond and between these lines, as you have done, to come up with something we can use to our favour. How well we can see their prejudice is often how much we can get that extra edge on them. We should get Eliot to teach a course on Psy-Ops for the AP........smile

More reason for the casinos to pay
Posted by Victoria on 30-Dec-2003 15:41:12 (#5952)

Ok guys, as an Hispanic Woman I have read your posts and have determined that the attitude of the casinos is just an additional reason that I should continue to make them pay, and pay!

Re: More reason for the casinos to pay
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 30-Dec-2003 16:16:16 (#5953)

You GO girl! smile Do you think it makes a difference in your case that you are of your race and that you are a woman? Do you think they treat you differently than a white male?

Yes and I don't think so
Posted by Victoria on 30-Dec-2003 20:06:47 (#5959)

Rob

Yes, being a woman is a definate advantage going in. That preconception of the pit is real but you still can not be obvious. Also, I will get the pit type who wants to flirt, so he may well be distracted.
There is another thing that I think I may have posted here before. In a couple of places in Vegas that I always go to, I can sit down at the table and the guys will start betting more sometimes. I watched one poor guy start betting between $500-$2,000 and talking to me, trying to impress me, and then he started trying to get it all back by flat betting the 2G (table max). Poor guy must have lost 30,000 in the session, taped out his credit line and left. This kind of thing has happened often enough that I notice it and I think this one bit boss, who might even know I count, has noticed it also. She always treats me real well. Does that make me their shill???

On the race thing, I never have thought about it and I am not obviously Hispanic. I could easily say I was Italian, Greek, Jewish or someone similar without any question. So, in my case there is no real advantage there.

Re: Counter Profiling
Posted by revereman on 23-Dec-2003 18:38:50 (#5885)

I would imagine that some minorities may get a little more leeway than the white male. However, if a casino thinks you are a threat, they will take countermeasures, including banning (where allowed). Saw that happen to an Asian male at Resorts last year. Yes, Virginia, there is a grinch.

Re: Counter Profiling
Posted by DoctorJames on 25-Dec-2003 02:22:00 (#5901)

All the profiling articles I have read state the white, bearded, under-dressed, studious looking male are the big red suv in the sea of white geos. So I would say dress a part... Business, pimpish, or possibly something more extreme if necessary. Normal people dont go gambling dressed like its the middle of the week and I forgot to shave yesterday. They go looking slightly nice, or very nicely attired to impress those around, possible pick up the opposite sex, and so forth. You need to look like throwing around 10-60 bones on a hand isnt out of the ordinary for you in day to day life. Let alone pulling out 50 after 50 or C-note after C-note for checks. Normal people do not do that. People with some money do that. Upper Middle America, so I would recommend looking like your bankroll, and modify that with the time of the day... Daytime, look like a business person, as Wong suggests, playing hooky from the office. Just my opinion. Sammy I would say shave. Of coarse, certain times of the day weild different casino goers, but even the old ladies come in their nice sweaters and red lipstick. =)

Re: Counter Profiling
Posted by wongout on 26-Dec-2003 08:24:58 (#5902)

Best profile of all is to limit your session length. Bnag them and go before they have time to get a read on ya. White males probably get heat quicker than other folks but they are also probably less likely to be remember than the "woman" counter who we tossed last week. I have returned to play in the same casino the next day after a back of and survived; they back off lots of youn (ok so so young anymore) white guys and I left quickly and quietly.

good luck

wong out

Who knows what evil lerks in the mind or lack of mind, of the pit
Posted by Victoria on 23-Dec-2003 19:12:05 (#5887)

You probably have a good point about possible lawsuits but using the Asian player as an example: If they throw him out but have not done anything to the other 400 Asian gamblers staying at their hotel, it would be hard to prove they discriminated against him for being Asian. They discriminate against counters, but love ploppy of all types as long as they have money.
I think there is a general white male, non smoker or drinker, non tipper, studious type profile in the minds of most pit types, so if you do not fit that profile, you have an initial advantage in cover off the top. I feel though like all advantages, it can be lost, so cover is still important.

Re: Who knows what evil lerks in the mind or lack of mind, of the pit
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 24-Dec-2003 08:28:52 (#5889)

I know how you can get all upset after they turf you, but they are really just doing their job. If you can get away with it, great, but if they have any kind of problem with you, it is their right to keep you out. I look at it like the freedom of speech. That right may be protected by the federal government, but it is not protected under certain circumstances. Individual groups of people can force you to keep your mouth shut, take away your right to make money from casinos honestly, or kick you out.

Re: Who knows what evil lerks in the mind or lack of mind, of the pit
Posted by SammyBoy on 24-Dec-2003 12:54:05 (#5894)

I think there is a general white male, non smoker or drinker, non tipper, studious type profile in the minds of most pit types, so if you do not fit that profile, you have an initial advantage in cover off the top.

I guess I need to start smoking, drinking and tipping now. Damn, I thought gambling was a big enough vice that I didn't need the others. Do you think my wife will buy it? I doubt it. Do you think a little grease under the fingernails and not shaving for a few days will counter my "studious type profile?"

or you could try
Posted by Victoria on 24-Dec-2003 18:54:57 (#5895)

Sammy

You could try coming in as a Latina who likes to talk to the pit and dealer a lot but still keeps her count and indices. Or just try the non shaving.
Actually, I think that most of us worry more about cover than we really need too. I see ploppys spread like crazy and pit types getting concerned when the bets are big. Perhaps it is where I do most of my playing but red and green chip players seem to get no heat but black and purple are watched.

What does scare me is machines that can track your bets and the cards played, like Mindplay. I feel I can get by with most pit types but a machine can not be distracted, smiled at or talked too.

For those with Math skills.
Posted by DoctorJames on 23-Dec-2003 08:46:02 (#5880)

I posted a little while ago on this topic, but i did some more research and thought a "bump" was in order.

In Wong's book he describes the Royal Match Side Bet. With 1D you are at a severe disadvantage like -3%, this bet then sucks. He then says in 6D you have an advantage of 1.3%. This assuming the payoff for first 2 cards suited was 3:1 and for Royal Match 10:1.

The last time I posted this question I got the impression that I had some "need" to make a ploppy side bet, so I should do Lucky Ladies. Fine, except that is a rare side bet in my neck of the woods, nor do I have a "need" to make a side bet. Any advantage bet in my mind is an advantage bet. So being that I seek wisdom and knowledge I ask if there is a resource (person or machine) that could calculate (or tell me how to) the advantage of the follow payoff for Royal Match. Any first two cards suited = 2.5:1; A suited natural 5:1; Royal Match (suited king/queen) 25:1.

My thought is that with those payoffs I will have a greater advantage, but I would like to know for sure. So I could calculate a needed Bankroll to cover standard deviation and such. Mathamatics I am quite poor at.

Just to put it into perspective... 1.3% in a 6D blackjack game is defiently over a TC of 1. Thus with the House Rules of the establishment I frequent, would give me a total advantage of 0.3 without counting.

I respect your thoughts and intelligence.
Thank You,
DoctorJames.

A Real Quick Rough Calculation
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 23-Dec-2003 10:07:28 (#5881)

There are 13 ranks of cards and four suits.
This produces (13 x 4) x (13 x 4) = 2704 possible two card combinations.
(I'll ignore the small 1/312th effect of removal that occurs in a 6 deck shoe when you get one particular card first, your chances of getting the second identical card is less.)

Out of these 2704 combinations, 1/4 or 676 are suited for the 2.5 to 1 payoff

There are 32 combinations of suited natural, that pay 5:1, but subtract these 32 combinations from the 676 suited combinations, because that number already includes them. So we have 32@5:1, and 644@2.5:1.

There are 8 suited king/queen combinations (4 K/Q and 4 Q/K, all my numbers are taking into account order, although not important, oh well - it is a quick calculation.) So we subtract these 8 suited combinations from the already counted ones, and we end up with 8@25:1, 32@5:1 and 636@2.5:1.

So making the mythical 2704 $1 side bets, and the cards fall the mythical way probability suggests into the 2704 equally likely combinations:

We wager a total of $2704.
We win 8@25:1 for $208,
We win 32@5:1 for $192,
We win 636@2.5:1 for $2226.

This gives us a total of $2626 won.
Subtract the $2704 wagered = -$78 net loss.

$78/$2704 = about a 2.89% house edge,
which is pretty good for a casino side bet, most have really awful edges.

Re: A Real Quick Rough Calculation
Posted by DoctorJames on 24-Dec-2003 03:02:47 (#5888)

Wow,

so the half a bet unit payoff change for (any first two cards suited) makes a tremendous difference ! I would have thought the greater payoff on Royal Match and the additional payoff on suited naturals would have more than compensated for the half unit. Amazing. Thank you for those calculations, I will now repeal my Royal Match bet, unless I find a system to exploit the high payouts.

Thanks again,
Doctor James.

I went over your calculations and have a question.
Posted by DoctorJames on 25-Dec-2003 02:07:48 (#5899)

How do we factor in then the number of Decks. In a Six Deck shoe it is obvious that it is more likely to catch a card of the same suit after the first card, because there is no longer just 4 suits there are 6 times of each suit. So then instead of there being 13 Hearts, for instance, there are 78 hearts. This is probably obvious to the mathamatically talented, but I just dont know where to plug that number in. Because i would think you would have the same 2704 possible two card combination, but I would think more than 1/4 of them would be suited in a Six Deck situation, since you have essentially mulitplied the number of same suited cards by 6 yet have not changed the fact their are 13 ranks of them. Just like you get more naturals at single deck and less at Shoe Games, I would think a similiar effect would happen here. This is mystery to me.

So now looking at your numbers it appears that this payoff system yeilds a 1% advantage over the Payoffs Wong describes on page 150 in Basic Blackjack (the newest print), For single deck he says the casino has an edge of 3.8% which looks aweful similiar to your 2.8% as you calculated with the payoff I described. Then he says with 6 decks the player has a 1.1% edge over the house, so now we are closer still to solving the puzzle. I think I am now more confused than before. =)

Happy Holidays
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 24-Dec-2003 08:31:05 (#5890)

Wishing you the best that life and blackjack has to offer you over the holiday season and the coming year 2004.

Aces and Faces,
Rob McGarvey

And Same to you, Sir!!!! *NM*
Posted by phantom007 on 25-Dec-2003 00:11:09 (#5897)

Peace and Goodwill to all *NM* *NM*
Posted by DoctorJames on 25-Dec-2003 02:09:11 (#5900)

Happy holidays to every one....
Posted by Learning to count on 24-Dec-2003 12:13:33 (#5892)

even you Casino trolls! :)

And Wishing Y'all........
Posted by phantom007 on 25-Dec-2003 00:09:49 (#5896)

DEEP PENETRATION for the coming year!

phantom007.

Vegas conditions at New Years Eve?
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 26-Dec-2003 12:19:47 (#5904)

Haven't been there since NYE 00. Plan to arrive there 12-29. Want to play 20 - 25 hrs. Overnight stay is already arranged. Would appreciate some guidance so I can cut out some pounding the pavement time looking for the best BJ games. Don't like 8D. Max bet at $150. Bankroll is not too big now. Had to use some for an emergency.

Thanks for the anticipated assistance.

Stealth

Re: Vegas conditions at New Years Eve?
Posted by The Mayor on 26-Dec-2003 12:33:43 (#5905)

Forget it -- if you can MOVE during those days you will be lucky. Every table in every casino will be packed, prices will be sky-high. The only hours that are reasonable are 5AM - 9AM, after that, just avoid getting crushed by the crowds and you are doing well.

--Mayor

Re: Vegas conditions at New Years Eve?
Posted by wongout on 26-Dec-2003 13:03:49 (#5906)

I think that the problem is the 150 top bet. Means that you are stuck playing 25-150 hand helds or 10,15 - 150 shoes. Both types of games are likely to be pretty crowded. One adv if you find a good table is the cover that the other players will provide. BTW - for high stakes players times like NYE, big fights, and crowded times in general are prime opportunities.

good luck

wong out

Re: Vegas conditions at New Years Eve?
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 26-Dec-2003 13:40:32 (#5907)

Last year, Downtown, you had to pay 40 bucks just to have access to Freemont Street. It was horrible. When the band was playing on the (First Street?) stage, It took me 20 minutes to push through the crowd between the Golden Gate and the Nugget. Tables were crowded and full of Drunken Jerks until the wee hours.

-Felix

Re: Vegas conditions at New Years Eve?
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 26-Dec-2003 14:08:50 (#5908)

Thank you. OK, I got the message well enough to not go even though I have a free 3 night stay 1 block west of the stip.

Re: Vegas conditions at New Years Eve?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 29-Dec-2003 23:48:10 (#5940)

The crowded conditions can work in your favor if you know how to move with them SB.

And Then Everyone Was Happy
Posted by CanKen on 26-Dec-2003 17:59:45 (#5909)

The count rose above +4, I had a max bet out, and for the first time since I added that index number to my list, I was dealt A,8 vs 4. As I pushed out my double-down, the others at the table moaned, groaned, and made negative comments, especially a little lady who was practically screaming "Don't do that! You have nineteen. Don't ever do that with nineteen!" I got a 4, but when the dealer turned a 10 and drew a 9, and everybody won, they were all happy and friendly and congratulated me on my "inspired hunch" and "card sense". The dealer just smiled and couldn't even find a PC to call the "over $100" payout to.

P.S. I lost the next few hands and ended up down for the day, but that hand was fun and brightened up a dull session.

Re: And Then Everyone Was Happy
Posted by Shaggy18vw on 27-Dec-2003 13:18:53 (#5917)

Yes, it is fun... but how they would moan if "you took the dealer's bust card". They might get real frustrated and just leave.

System Indices
Posted by rich clarke on 26-Dec-2003 23:30:31 (#5912)

Can anyone tell me if the system indices I see posted on cardcounter.com is a true count based on the number of remaining decks or the number of remaing half decks.
Thanks
Richhope

Re: System Indices
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Dec-2003 13:23:00 (#5918)

Based on the number of remaining decks.

Downtown LV
Posted by Roy on 27-Dec-2003 01:15:38 (#5913)

Staying DT for three nights(GN) Using basic KO, with some recent success -- but have a ways to go. Suggestions as to where to play to avoid heat. Will look to spread 25-100 max. My friend at work says Binions is least tolerant. Thanks.

Re: Downtown LV
Posted by Shaggy18vw on 27-Dec-2003 13:15:53 (#5916)

If you intend to play single deck, you are staying at the correct hotel. GN has no single deck (except super fun). Binion's may be the only place that will not sweat your action. The 4Q is a great place to get backed off. You can get backed off just for winning too much too soon, even though you are spreading against the count. LV Club is good, and your action is probably not too big for them. But back to Binion's, they are nice and crowded, so you may find a great opportunity at a table that just happens to open. Play it, and move. The crowds are your friend, you may go unnoticed.

If Double deck is your fancy, GN may have a game for you. Also look at the California and Lady Luck.

Re: Downtown LV
Posted by Learning to count on 27-Dec-2003 20:40:51 (#5922)

The LVC has the best game in town. They will kick you out when you win and play with skill. Horshoe sux! Western has a good game but they will throw you out when you buy in for over fifty bucks. ElCortez is so sweaty you have to grab your chair to stop sliding off. The nugget has wongable games. Golden gate has a good two decker. All in all very sweaty all over. Watch out for 6/5 sh!t games.

Re: Downtown LV
Posted by Hal Jordan on 28-Dec-2003 10:53:46 (#5925)

For songle deck I have always had a great time at both LVC and Binion's. Four Queens is great place to make a quick hit (they use a cut card on their single deck), but if you win quickly, expect the boot. Golden Gate has some decent single and double, but often they are too crowded to bother with (I don't mean to imply that their are tons of people, rather there are too few tables). I also suggest checking out the DD at Califonia (very tolerant, decent pen.). My money will normally go to the Shoe and LVC because they have never sweat me, even when playing several sessions in a short amount of time.

May you win your insurance bets,
HJ

Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#5914)

Re: How much money is needed to turn pro ?
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Dec-2003 12:47:34 (#5915)

When you are ready to turn pro, you will already know the answer to this question. If you don't know the answer, then my suggestion is that you play a lot more, read a lot more, and meet a lot of people who are doing exactly what you want to do and talk to them about it.

I know a pro who made 30k-40k per year with a 15k-20k bankroll, but he is exceptional. Most are working from a bankroll of 50k or more, or are in teams, or have investors, or...

--Mayor

Re: How much money is needed to turn pro ?
Posted by Learning to count on 27-Dec-2003 20:35:09 (#5921)

Turning pro! Hahahahahahaha. Sorry....I thought you were thinking about being a hooker. Well turning pro as far as black jack goes...; Dont quit your job. Like the Mayor said: "Play Play play, Read Read Read, communicate communicate. You will need to be a master at the game and you need other skills. Turning pro is tough. Black Jack is a B!tch. When you get good its fun at first but then yech!!!!!!

An interesting web site --
Posted by The Mayor on 27-Dec-2003 14:01:02 (#5919)

This web site is a message board for dealers -- it is interesting to read the about the other side.

http://pub35.ezboard.com/bthedealerslounge

Re: An interesting web site --
Posted by Hal Jordan on 29-Dec-2003 19:06:34 (#5938)

Mayor,
Thanks for the link. This is a really interesting site to help gain the psychological edge. Everyone should be studying it.

Thanks,
HJ

Year end results
Posted by ZOD on 27-Dec-2003 15:40:44 (#5920)

Well, I've just finished my last session of the calendar year. Since the posts I enjoy most are those relating trip reports and results in real world play, I thought I might get the ball rolling...

For 2003, I logged 429 hours (the most ever for a year) at the tables for a meager 96 unit win. A whopping .22 units/hour. It may not seem like much, but I'm happy just to be in the black considering that this year's roller coaster had some pretty steep dips and climbs. My unit high for the year was +897, while my low was -540. My largest daily unit win was +135 units (God, it seems like years ago) and largest daily loss was -300 units (happened 3 times and each feels like yesterday.)

A few hands are etched into my mind from 2003. I resplit aces four times with a max bet out and caught four 21s. (Sweet!) I resplit sevens three times against a six and with doubling ended up with six max bets on the table only to lose to a dealer twenty. (Not so sweet!) I watched a dealer blackjack four times in a row (she pushed with me twice.) The list could go on; just when you think something could never happen, it does twice in a row.

This year, I played in Vegas, the Missippi Gulf Coast, Louisiana, and at a couple of Indian casinos here and there. I played almost all shoe games and usually spread 1-12. I encountered very little heat for the most part. I was told once (politely) that I had won enough at the blackjack table and should go and try roulette. A few times, my 80% pen shoe was cut back to 50%. Several times, I felt that I was being monitored and cut the session short. But, all in all, I had generally pleasant experiences from the casino side.

Anyway, that's a little taste of my blackjack year. I hope others will share their ups and downs (hopefully, more UPS than downs) as well. Have a Happy New Year and great cards for 2004!

Best...

ZOD

Re: Year end results
Posted by Alex on 27-Dec-2003 23:51:44 (#5923)

My goal for 2003 was to get into the long run ASAP and make a profit. So, I was able to get about 25 hours per week as a part time play. My first bottom happened after 250 hours of play and I knew then that I�ve reach the long run. The hole at that point was �100 units in one session and I was still in the black. From that point on was a slow grind and finally managed to put a total of 400 hours just before Christmas. I did show a nice profit for the period. The hourly rate has been about 1.5 units. I guess, I was also a little lucky too.

During the month of December I lost every time I split ACES. Amazing, but true. I never won a single hand this month while splitting Aces. When I got myself in negative fluctuation was because I lost most of my Doubling Downs and didn�t got my fare share of BJs. At some point, I had hours and hours without a single blackjack.

Did a lot of things right, played with discipline in good games all over Vegas. Even when I was getting hammered I knew in my heart that I was going to win in the long run. I don't think I made a lot of mistakes but you never know for sure.

The biggest pleasure for me has been making new friends. I�ve meet a nice lady that plays professionally for years. Great player with a great act.

AlexD30

2004
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 30-Dec-2003 00:10:50 (#5942)

Alex is the big winner here capturing a fine womans heart. Congratz Alex. I should tally everything up for 2003, but that would be too much work. I don't have to report any of my winnings as taxes in Canuckville Ontario, so Bob's yur Aunt. I do faaaaaaar too much paperwork already thankyouverymuch. I'd ball park it at 60K at work, more than that playing online, and I'd say I'm up a notch or two playing Fred and Barney style 8 deck. My biggest gains were in the grocery sector where I finally got my food coupons in order. The no expiry date ones in one zip lock bag, the ones that die in the other in order of month.

2004 should be a doozie. I'm getting all the soldiers in order and soon you'll be able to hear them from far and away as we stomp through cyberspace shouting.....loud noises of some sort or another. Oh! And world peace. And I also want to get Bono onside and amalgamate every charity into one giant one.

Love y'all!

Rob

my results
Posted by The Mayor on 28-Dec-2003 11:13:47 (#5926)

My results --

I did not play at all until June 16 of this year.

I played blackjack on 16 days, for a total of 34.5 hours. I won 65 units during that time.

I played other advantage games as well (and some not so well) ...

I played 80 hours of poker in 2003, mostly $4-$8 Texas Hold'em. For those 80 hours of play, I lost $327.

I played video poker twice for a net loss of $145.

Then there is the host of other advantage games I played -- everything I could find, including the big-6 wheel of this month's podium. I put a total of 36 hours into other advantage games, and won 217 units.

This was my best year (per hour played) by a long shot.

--Mayor

My First Full Year
Posted by SammyBoy on 29-Dec-2003 16:10:02 (#5932)

And I am down exactly 64.58 units after 263 hours of play. I figure that I made mistakes early, played too many full tables, and tipped too much. In November of this year I switched to the Advanced Omega II count from Hi/Lo and feel like I'm doing better. Since switching I've logged 39 hours and am ahead by 33.3 units just over .85 units per hour. I've also cut WAAAAY back on the tipping. I'm keeping it at about $1 per hour, it's still too much I know, but I'm working on it. I will try to play once more before next year and with a little luck I can finish the year on the plus side.

Re: My First Full Year
Posted by SammyBoy on 29-Dec-2003 16:17:22 (#5933)

I also received $421.13 in food comps which helps offset the loss. I have more comps built up that I will try to use before year end. I may be able to get in 2 more sessions before 2004.

Re: Year end results
Posted by BradRod on 31-Dec-2003 19:28:50 (#5962)

So far i think that I am the winner - for most hours played at least.

Rounded off to 1500 hours. The big finish that I was hoping for turned into a setback and I finished the year up 1000 units which translates into approx .66/ hour. I think that I need to find better games to play at. By the end of the year I had finally expanded to all the IL18 and that has helped some.

I have quite a meticulous log of the year's play with entries of the results of as little as 10 minutes play to as many as 3 hours play. I would think there should be some value to this data - more than I fully understand how to use. Any suggestions ?

One thing I know that would be useful is determining the SD for my style of play. In one playing session I began with a major loss in the first hour. reflecting on this loss during a break in play I figured that was beyond what my SD should be for a downward cycle. This encouraged me to keep playing. I watched the correction in results over the next few hours of play until I was well into a winning part of the cycle.

Any math suggestions for analyzing and using this data would be most welcome. I will gladly post a graph of my results if the Mayor will assist.

Happy New Year to all

Re: Year end results
Posted by NorCalBJ on 02-Jan-2004 23:50:48 (#5973)

I played 74 hours of BJ and ended up ahead 51 units.
I played about 100 hours of Texas Hold em (mostly online) and finished ahead about $1000 for the year.
My New years Resolution is to spend more time at the BJ and poker tables online and brick and mortar.

? 4 the Mayor, 6D - 18TC - 1 hand vs. multi hands - 1 on 1
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 28-Dec-2003 01:03:59 (#5924)

Mayor:

I think you are the only one I know of that may be able to properly analyze and provide a correct an comprehensible answer for all of us, to the following question scenario:

6D - 16TC - mid pack - 80% pen - 1 on 1 with the D (heat not a consideration)

Should the player bet max 1 on 1 until just before the cut card, then spread to as many hands as is allowed? - Or - Should the player play as many hands as is allowed from mid pack to the end, thereby substantially restricting the amount of hands that the D receives while providing the most possible hands to the player during such a high C situation? (assuming the TC stays at approx. 16TC until the shoe is tapped out; in addition, the player bets X% less per circle than he/she would otherwise bet 1 on 1).

I tried this issue in an earlier post, but I am still not yet convinced as to what is really the mathematically perfect way to handle the situation whenever it presents itself.

Would appreciate your response.

Stealth Bomber

Re: ? 4 the Mayor, 6D - 18TC - 1 hand vs. multi hands - 1 on 1
Posted by The Mayor on 29-Dec-2003 11:35:30 (#5931)

I am not going to answer your question ... but I do thank you for thinking that I would be able to give you a precise answer to this. The general theme is that nothing is ever gained by spreading to more than 3 hands, but there are many times that 2 or 3 hands are better than 1 in shoe games.

I wrote to an expert and asked him to comment, I hope he does.

With best regards,

--Mayor

Re: ? 4 the Mayor, 6D - 18TC - 1 hand vs. multi hands - 1 on 1
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 29-Dec-2003 17:32:15 (#5936)

So this is a true count of +18? (I'm assuming High-Low)

I would play a maximum number of hands per round. The reason is that with High-Low you are playing for blackjacks (one of the strongest points of the system) and you want to get a maximum number of hands in on the shoe, the shoe will be in your favor until the shuffle. And the fewer cards the dealer plays, the more you will play. Of course I would only do this if I had a huge bankroll, and at the very least make sure I had enough to insure every hand which you sure will want to do if the opportunity arises. Then there is always the dealer's face BJ to worry about. Also plan on having enough to double, split, and split 10's against dealer 3 to 6. The downside of all this is that I doubt anyone memorizes the correct playing indices for TC=+18, so you are going to be making some playing errors I think.

Re: 6D - high C - 1 hand vs. multi hands - 1 on 1
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 29-Dec-2003 23:51:10 (#5941)

Actually I was thinking in terms of the C system I use which is AOII. I think on the average it would convert to about 1.5 times more TC points than Hi/Lo. Therefore, a C of 16 - 18TC is much more likely with AOII.

I had a discrepancy in my original post at the top of this thread. The heading said 18 and in another area I said 16TC. Regardless, the point is that the C is very high in the scenario to set the stage for this issue. Which is an issue that puzzles me.

You are the first person that I have found that apparently sees this situation as I think it should be. I like what you said:

And the fewer cards the dealer plays, the more you will play.

It has become my contention that it is mathematically best in this situation to get as many of the big cards into my own hands while restricting the D to getting the least as possible. Therefore, the only way to do this is to play as many hands as is allowed or that I can realistically slip through and get away with.

Everyone accept you have told me that my way of thinking on this issue is incorrect. They always think that it is somehow best to play only 1 hand until just before the cut card, and then spread to as many hands as is possible. I say to spread to as many as is possible whenever the C is high regardless of how many players are at the table.

Automatic Monkey, are you the *expert* that The Mayor made reference to?

Does anyone else have any comments to add?

Thank you; to The Mayor and Automatic Monkey.

Stealth

Re: 6D - high C - 1 hand vs. multi hands - 1 on 1
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 30-Dec-2003 02:31:06 (#5943)

"Automatic Monkey, are you the *expert* that The Mayor made reference to?"

Actually no, I've only been counting for a couple of months. But I think I'm getting a pretty good grasp on the principles of this game, having a physics degree and all that, the math seems pretty straightforward and intuitive.

Stanford Wong is a proponent of playing multiple hands and an undeniable expert if there ever was one, he'd be a great person to weigh in on this. Aside from gobbling up good cards when the count is good, playing multiple hands reduces your standard deviation and allows you to experience "long term" results more quickly. It is also a less noticeable way to increase your bet because so many average players bet two hands.

Re: ? 4 the Mayor, 6D - 18TC - 1 hand vs. multi hands - 1 on 1
Posted by The Mayor on 30-Dec-2003 09:49:31 (#5946)

I am not an expert -- but here is a little bit of analysis.

If there is half a shoe left, that's 156 cards. If 60 cards are cut off (generous!), then you have 96 cards left to play. At 2.7 cards per hand, that's about 36 total hands (including the dealer's hands). These 36 hands can be played as follows:

One spot == 18 hands to you, 18 to the dealer (18 rounds)
Two spots == 24 hands to you, 12 to the dealer (12 rounds)
Three spots == 27 hands to you, 9 to the dealer (9 rounds)
Five spots == 30 hands to you, 6 to the dealer (6 rounds)
Eight spots == 32 hands to you, 4 to the dealer (4 rounds)

Now, on each hand, you don't want to overbet your bankroll for your advantage (to exceed your kelley bet). If max bet is $100, then you will wager $1800 on this edge on One spot. If that is the correct Kelley bet, then it is correct in all of these situations.

Thus you should bet 1800/24 = $75 per hand playing 2 spots, and you should bet $67 if you are playing 3 hands, you should bet $60 per spot playing 5 spots, and $56 per spot playing 8 hands. Thus the same total money goes down on the table at the end of the shoe.

If you exceed these amounts then you are overbetting your edge, and just like any situation where you overbet, you are increasing your risk of ruin.

So, what is the actual effect of spreading to multiple hands? The key here is not that you increase your EV, but that you lower your Variance -- by playing multiple hands the swings you encounter will not be as large and this raises the DI (desirability index) of the game you are playing.

In your scheme, if you bet the $100 on each spot (your max bet), then spreading to 5 spots will have you put down $500 (for each of 6 rounds). Just imagine the nightmare when the dealer flips over his blackjack, or draws a 21 while all your hands are pat 20's! Clearly you are overbetting your edge, and this should not be considered.

The expert I contacted about this has not yet replied, I still hope he will say something.

--Mayor

Happy New Year - & thanks, Mayor
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 30-Dec-2003 11:11:32 (#5948)

I'll be gone playing BJ and having some other fun 'til eve of 2nd.

Re: Happy New Year - & thanks, Mayor
Posted by wong out on 30-Dec-2003 18:22:36 (#5954)

Don S addresses this question in BJ Attack. Basically when head up you are better off playing 1 hand to maximize the number of roundds you can get in before the shuffle. Of course if its the last round go ahead and spread (making sure to lower your individual bets sizes) to reduct the variance and get abit more info for making playing decisions.

With more than 1 player the card eating effect of multiple jand play is less sigificant so the optimal strategy is to sperad to two hands.

Hope this helps!

wong out

Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#5927)

Re: How much money is needed to turn pro ?
Posted by Learning to count on 28-Dec-2003 16:48:02 (#5929)

SO why do you want to gamble?????????

Re: How much money is needed to turn pro ?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 29-Dec-2003 23:44:29 (#5939)

Playing blackjack is not gambling if you are a skilled counter. This gent seems to have his back against a wall and is thinking of taking it to the streets. My first reaction to him is to tell him to go semi pro and keep his day job. I prefer many streams of income, which include in this order, a day job, internet blackjack, internet team play, mutual funds in RRSP accounts, and table play when the boys want to go for a hoot and a holler.

The Mayor is right, if he doesn't know he isn't ready, and should not be considering going pro. Stranger things have happened and worked out, but the odds are not in your favor just yet sir. I suggest you look in the newpaper for a day job first, get some scratch together to play online where you have a bigger more solid chance of winning (see Barry Meadows book Crushin the Internet Casinos) then see if you still want to grind your life away in a smoke filled hole in the wall for comps and chips under the glaring eye of "The Boss."

Nice disguise Eliot. It gives you, shall we say, a bit of a sleazy Vegas look instead of the school boy gone peppermint look. Dazzling I must say.

LOVE the new picture!
Posted by Sonny on 29-Dec-2003 17:22:19 (#5934)

It's not as majestic as the old one, but now we get to see you the way the other side sees you! Unfortunately, we can't see the huge pile of chips in front of you.

-Sonny-

Re: LOVE the new picture!
Posted by The Mayor on 29-Dec-2003 17:31:28 (#5935)

You guessed it -- this one is a survellience photo from one of my recent trips to LV -- many many thanks to my entirely anonymous source!

I know, the sunglasses make it obvious...

-- Mayor

A good likeness indeed! :>) *NM*
Posted by LVBear584 on 29-Dec-2003 17:39:10 (#5937)

Re: A good likeness indeed! :>)
Posted by wong out on 30-Dec-2003 18:26:43 (#5955)

Mayor:

I wouldnt worry about the sunglasses. Sunglasses have become very hip recently for the chic fashion crowd and you see many folks wearing them inside. In the summer in vegas i wear them inside almost all the time.

Any playing heat you get is probably more due to posting your picture; appearing on tv in vegas etc than wearing shades.

wong out

Re: LOVE the new picture!
Posted by BradRod on 31-Dec-2003 20:15:47 (#5963)

looks like a young kevin spacey

Re: LOVE the new picture!
Posted by Kevin on 24-Jan-2004 04:02:16 (#6351)

I cant believe they let you wear those glasses on the table. They probally thougfht you were daubing cards. Anyways like the picture. What did you do tell them it was prescription eye wear?

Avoiding the 'Black Action' call
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 30-Dec-2003 02:46:12 (#5944)

Play a black chip at a green or red table, and the dealer will usually yell out "Black Action!" to alert the pit of the large bet. Not exactly what you want when you are a counter trying to exploit a low-min table.

But here's an observation I've made: the dealer doesn't always do this, only sometimes, and I think it is at their discretion. And I notice they don't yell it when there is a Black person at the table, in fact I can never recall seeing this combination. A dealer once told me that it embarrasses him to yell this. So if you are planning on spreading into the black, pick a table with a Black guy playing and you might be able to get away with more. I kid you not! And if you are Black you can give them hell and then they might not want to say it again. I guess political correctness has its uses.

Now here's a thought experiment: will having a couple of gentlemen from the Czech Republic at the table squelch the "Checks play!" call. Who knows?

Re: Avoiding the 'Black Action' call
Posted by The Mayor on 30-Dec-2003 10:35:42 (#5947)

>But here's an observation I've made: the dealer doesn't always do this, only sometimes, and I think it is at their discretion.

This is false. Dealer's are required to yell this out at most stores. It is a procedural violation for the dealer to not yell it out, and they can get a written report for such a violation if the floor manager or pit boss chooses.

>And I notice they don't yell it when there is a Black person at the table, in fact I can never recall seeing this combination. A dealer once told me that it embarrasses him to yell this.

Now, this is a whole other thing -- a blackjack pun. I can imagine why this would be embarassing. But, they are still required to do it.

>So if you are planning on spreading into the black, pick a table with a Black guy playing and you might be able to get away with more.

Or, put a stack of greens down.

--Mayor

Re: Avoiding the 'Black Action' call
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 30-Dec-2003 12:55:15 (#5951)

If that is what they are doing at your casino use it if you can. Another example of prejudice working. They may be required to call checks played or black action, but often the PB is too busy and the dealer will look for him, and see he is no where in site and not bother calling. A case of the tree falling in the forest and no one hearing it. Did it make a noise or not? There is an objective answer, and a subjective one. ANOTHER great reason to play on New Years and long weekends. It's like a giant pi�ata bursting open man. Dive for the candy! smile

"Tear the roof off the sucka,
Tear the roof off the sucka.......
Tear the roof off the sucka."

Robby Mac

Re: Avoiding the 'Black Action' call
Posted by wong out on 30-Dec-2003 18:33:01 (#5956)

I avoid the "black action" call by spreading purple to chunky orange. It works! BTW - you rarely hear checks play and black action in premium strip joint high limit rooms. Of course the games are prob watched much closer from above to begin with (i.e the surv techs are more likely to put down their smokes to hurridely finish the play eval so they can get back to the more important shoot the shit!).

wong out

Re: Avoiding the 'Black Action' call
Posted by ZOD on 30-Dec-2003 18:39:03 (#5958)

Wow! I'll have to try that. (Especially the "chunky orange") Happy New Year...

ZOD

Re: Avoiding the 'Black Action' call
Posted by ZOD on 30-Dec-2003 18:35:07 (#5957)

I asked two dealer friends if the "black action" call is mandatory at their casino. Both said yes, but they usually don't bother half the time because floor people don't pay attention anyway! One floor person I spoke with said that he's only concerned with someone who is varying their bet a lot and seems to be winning. When I explained that I vary my bet a lot and no one seems to mind, he just smiled and said that I was a nice guy and he enjoys having me play at his casino. Damn it, I guess I'm not winning enough.

Best...

ZOD

thats great,how about yellow play(offends chinese)
Posted by eyes for 21 on 30-Dec-2003 21:06:40 (#5960)

yellow play(1000) which offends the chinese.

each casino has different rules and different color chips
so I do not believe there is any rule,maybe at certain casinos
though.

Re: Avoiding the 'Black Action' call
Posted by BradRod on 31-Dec-2003 19:05:55 (#5961)

I Play at a casino with predominantly afro players. The dealers I've noticed have no problem saying "black going out" when they have "colored"-up a player and he is leaving the game. I sometimes kiddingly say "there is no reason to get racial about it". Nobody seems to ever get it.

The 'Shoe (DT LV)
Posted by Roy on 30-Dec-2003 12:00:22 (#5949)

Things are looking bleak for the The Shoe once again. Any opinions on taking advantage of them at the tables if the ship is really sinking this time?

Surprise Lammer Gambit
Posted by BradRod on 31-Dec-2003 21:18:46 (#5964)

During play recently I left the game during the shoe because of the low count that it reached. Took a toilet break. I got back just in time to start the new shoe. Put down my 2 chip bet and won the hand - no split or double down. The dealer (relief) matched the height of my chips in paying me off. I was surprised that I had been paid a blackjack payoff- 3:2. Then i realized what had happened. The dealer had saved my spot w/ a clear lammer. I didn't notice this in placing my bet and put my chips on top of the lammer.

Just as I was noticing this I had the sense that the dealer may have caught on as well. It seemed like he was just beginning to react when the regular dealer came back and tapped him on the shoulder. Bye bye relief dealer oh and by the way regular dealer here is your lammer back. I'm not sure there is way to recreate this little trick but it always pays to be alert to the possibilities.

Re: Surprise Lammer Gambit
Posted by phantom007 on 07-Jan-2004 05:51:44 (#6029)

Good Play! Here in Missouri, we have to "hoard" chips to overcome the $500/2hr. buy-in limit....NOW, I am also going to have to start hoarding those little clear plastic things..."Lammers" you say.

phantom007.

Caged Heat
Posted by BradRod on 31-Dec-2003 22:03:25 (#5965)

I had returned to a casino that I have always enjoyed playing at after a stretch of staying away because I had been backed off from blackjack - "you are welcome to play other games"

I thought the elapsed time was adaquate and that it may be safe to play there again although I did not use my player card for fear of them identifying me by my name. (I really must get some different id one of these days) And it was fine over several sessions.

On the last trip though I ran into some totally unexpected heat that really freaked me out especially after my earlier experience.

I had been down quite a bit in play = over $3000. I stayed, played and won back what I lost and was up. I was squirrleing away chips during play and had quite a pocketful. When I went to the cashier cage to cash out I was mindful of a sign that I had seen there about limits of transactions before they aggregate winnings. Beyond a certain amount they require identification at increasing levels as the amount increases.

Being aware of this I only cashed out for an amount below their threshold level. But, as I was doing this the cashier, asked to see my player's card. I told her I didn't have one and why did she ask ? Then when she realized how much I actually had she said "never mind" and went on to explain that it was to my advantage to use a player card because I would get a better deal on the exchange rate. She said I should ask the PC about it. I went back and thought nothing more of it.

Played some more. Won some more. Went back to cash in chips - nowhere near any of the transaction limits. As I was standing there I realized the cashier supervisor was on the phone I heard him say "He is just cashing in chips for $6xx (my exact amount) and taking American back". He noticed me noticing him and immediatley came over to me. reviewed the transaction over the shoulder of the cashier and in the computer where the exchange was entered. Asked me how I was doing and was I done playing and leaving now ? I answered that I thought I would play a little longer and went back to the table. I had been getting no heat and no particular attention from the dealer or the pit during any of my play.

Because I would like to be able to continue playing there another time I thought better of the idea of staying and playing any further. Got up and left.

What disturbed me was the phone call. It seemed to have occured almost simultneously with me stepping up the cashier. So, I assumed I was being watched pretty closely for some reason and did not want to risk my play being observed so closely.

I went to the food area to take a break and sort things out. Decided there was nothing I particularly wanted to eat or drink and that maybe the best thing to do was leave.

I still had quite a bit of local currency on me that I needed to exchange. More than their threshold amount. I took a safe amount to a cashier window on the far end of the casino to exchange. During the transaction again a cashier supervisor came directly over to me, this time out of nowhwere and asked to see my player card. I told her I didn't have one. She said I should get one.

I just left with the rest of my money unchanged.

Looking back on it I think that for some reason my behavior looked suspicious to some overzealous camera person as a possible money launderer. I dont think it had anything to do with my play at all. My thinking is to wait several months before going back there again and maybe having some id that i can use when i do go back. I did miss taking advantage of their good comps.

Anyone have any thoughts or suggestions about the incident ?

Re: Caged Heat
Posted by The Mayor on 01-Jan-2004 19:55:00 (#5967)

>Looking back on it I think that for some reason my behavior looked suspicious to some overzealous camera person as a possible money launderer.

First, you are being watched because someone in the pit knew asked survellience to keep an eye on you. This is almost always the way it works -- you will not be hawked by people on the floor until it is time for them to take action, they want to give you adequate rope to do your thing.

Second, your method of cashing out constituted a technique called "currency structuring", which if you used to avoid reporting winnings above a threshhold (usually for tax purposes), is totally illegal.

--Mayor

Re: Caged Heat
Posted by BradRod on 01-Jan-2004 20:28:13 (#5968)

so, i've effectively been backed off again ?

i do not believe that there is any tax implication to my winning. this is a non US casino.

also to the best of my knowledge there is no action the casino may legally take against card counters.

does it make sense to stay away for a while and then try it again ?

Re: Caged Heat
Posted by ND on 08-Jan-2004 18:20:52 (#6053)

It is sometimes standard for cashiers to get verification of chips coming in. Reasons for this could be that chips were stolen from that property and all black and above were verified prior to cashing them out. They just make sure that the chips were won and that they weren't cashing out stolen chips. Another reason could simply be that verification goes through the eye at certain thresholds on cash outs. The pit verifies and then the cage is advised and Surveillance verifies the correct amount has been given.

3 Wonging Scenarios
Posted by BradRod on 01-Jan-2004 11:21:34 (#5966)

from recent play

Scenario I

Sat down to play at a table about half full to hear the woman at third base say "Its not good playing at a table that is not full especially near the entrance because you always get these players that come in and out and mess up the cards."

I said "you know I have never believed that any other player's play. In or out, hitting or not hitting, splitting or not splitting, etc. affects anybody elses cards. Here let me show you"

She groans loudly.

I: "ok, this whole next shoe I am going to pull hands in and out and show you that it makes no difference"

She groans more loudly.

The rest of the dialogue goes something like this:

"See I came in just in time to put the dealer off of that Ace"

"Oh, right ! like you really expect your double downs to hit every time ?"

"He would have beat us that hand anyway."

"You dont have to thank me just send chips"

"draw 5 cards to make 21. of course cause he's the dealer."

"boy. you are geting a lot of 16's"

She kept groaning. not saying much of anything else and she never left either.. But, with the cover of my "demonstration" i had a pretty good shoe playing to the strong counts of the shoe.

Scenario II

A special promotion night at the casino. Tons of people show up for the drawing for a Cadillac Escalade after about a 6 week long promotion. The place is packed.
Tough to find a spot open to play anywhere. Good news - I have a spot at one of the few $10, bad news - "1/2 hour the table is going up to $25". Worse news - I had been playing for several hours and am near the end of my playing stake. Cant't afford to bet at a $25 table.

So here is the setting. I am sitting at a 25 min table down to my last 4 green chips. Table full of neo-novice players, mostly drunk, struggling to figure out what to with 14 against a 6 or how to play a pair of 8's against and 8, just hoping for BJ's to keep it simple, would just as well be playing the big wheel or craps. Pit crew is totally absorbed with all the crowds of people and no time at all to pay attention to anything in particular. And the crew of dealers to cover this hyper busy night ? All trainees and novices. Suddenly I was hit the realization that I was the only one that knew anything at all about this game. I may for the moment be chip poor but, I own this table.

SO. I began by telling the dealer that I will come into the game when I am ready. She says "cool" and winks. The novices beat each other up and made stupid bets and plays, the dealer struggled through payouts, keeping hands going, adding the hands, etc. with no help at all from the pit. And I was calmly keeping track of the count with my precious little stake safe until the count finlly got rich enough . played my few hands and won them. Next shoe - same thing. The relief dealer shows up, also a trainee. The regular dealer has only one instruction to her before leaving. The guy at 3rd base plays whenever he feels like it. So, she gives me a wink and we go on... through 5 shoes at the end of which time I was up over $1000. No heat whatever. and i only left because I was exhausted and felt like I was waiting to long between positive counts.

Scenario III

I sit down at an open spot at the table. One spot left of center. one guy sitting to my left covering the 2 end spots. When I sit down he puts his bet in my playing circle. Starts a big fuss saying that he does not want any player to come in ahead of him and taking the cards that would have been his. I was in no mood to back down from this. So, we had a bit of a scene. PC comes over we are at a standstill for about 5 minutes while I tried to figure out what I wanted to get out of this situation.

I dont really care so much where I play but , the spot that I sat at seemed to offer the possibility of spreading to 2 hands and my general rule is that unless there is some advantage to me I give up nothing to another player ----- as a result at the places where I play most often I am either hated, feared or respected. Mostly hated - but only by other players. The dealers and pit crews seem to like me a lot because I am one of the few players that does not whine, swear at and/or abuse them. I have long come to the realization that there is nothing that other players can do or say to effect your game. One just has to learn to play through the distraction. I just tune them out or if need be intimidate them to keep them quiet. If they are too much of a nuissance it it easier to find another table to play at.------but here I was faced with this stubborn, irritating player. Then another player on the right side of the table offers to give up his spot. Giving me the 2 adjacent spots that I wanted. I took it acting petty and spiteful (maybe it was not such an act :) )

I moved over and said to my table rival "ok, you did not want anyone playing ahead of you but now I am . and I would like to pay close attention to how many ways I cAn think of messing up your game . I will split T's, I will stand on 16's, hit my soft 18's, split9's and 4's. and play hand in and hand out whenever i feel like.

License to steal . my only regret was that i did not get the chance to split T's. and he stopped playing before the end of the of the shoe but, hung around to watch me play for 2 more shoes..

Re: 3 Wonging Scenarios
Posted by wong out on 02-Jan-2004 22:28:51 (#5971)

Brad:

Nice stories; congrats on playing through the ploppy nonsense. You have to develop a thick skin for this kind of stuff to be successful. Everytime you dont spread to 2 hands to be a nice guy for a ploppy it costs you money.

One comment on the "license to steal!" I wish it were that easy; in fact (depending on the pen/decks) you probably get maybe 25 hands or worth playing/hour with an avg edge maybe approach 1%. Depending on your bet level it is alot of hard work and nonsense you have to put up with to "steal" your hourly ev.

good luck

wong out - btw wonging out gets much heat from ploppies and counters alike.

How accurate is that Card Counting Computer?
Posted by Josh on 02-Jan-2004 08:13:26 (#5969)

Hi. I was practicing the Hi-opt II system and planning on using it in a casino with the 6 deck shoes. Well, I came to your site and did a spread of 5 to 95 dollars with a 1 to 8 spread with double after splits and dealer stands on 17s. Well, I turned out to lose about 100,000 dollars. I did the simulation again with the same exact conditions and another loss happened. Because of this, I'm abandoning the hi-opt II count since there is no way I can add a sidecount of Aces in my count since it is hard enough as it is. I believe the results are fairly accurate because the same spread and conditions with the Hi-LO gave me a win of 100,000 or so. I've used Hi-Lo in simulations and done well but was looking for something with good playing efficiency. I've decided to stick with Hi-Lo but I want to thank you for the use of that computer because I would have gone and blown my money at a casino. Mayor, does that computer take any Indices into consideration? Also, does it simulate a player doubling on any two cards? I noticed it had an option for doubling after splits so that is where the question came from. Thanks.

Re: How accurate is that Card Counting Computer?
Posted by The Mayor on 02-Jan-2004 10:04:10 (#5970)

I can only think that you have not run en

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