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Threads 781 to 810

Best count to result in a dealer bust?
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 30-Nov-2003 22:27:22 (#5587)

What does the T C have to be resulting in a D bust most often?
I know it is on the + side but maybe not too far. ???

Stealth

Two perspectives from Griffin
Posted by Sonny on 30-Nov-2003 23:34:16 (#5592)

Ah, the card counter's paradox! Here's what Grifin has to say about card counters:

"they want all fives to be out of the deck before they raise their bets and then they want the dealer to show one as up card! There is an apparent paradox in that the cards whos removal most favors the player before the deal are also the cards whose appearance as dealer's up card most favors the player."

On page 147 (elephant edition) he concludes that "The dealer's probability of busting, as a function of ten density, appears to maximize (.295) with about 41% tens in the deck."

Depending on what count system you use and what values it assigns to cards (and which cards it does not assign values to) you will end up will various TCs for this density. Also, such a density of tens could describe many different deck compositions. From a strictly Thorp-esque (or would it be Thorp-ian? Maybe that's another post altogether!) tens/nontens standpoint, 41% is the number you are looking for.

However, if you are looking for the count with the highest player advantage the number is different:

"The player's advantage, as a function of increasing ten density, behaves in a similar fashion... It reaches it's zenith (almost 13%) when 73% of the cards are tens."

As the density grows higher, the player's advantage begins to return to zero since a deck composed of only tens would result in successive pushes.

-Sonny-

Re: Two perspectives from Griffin
Posted by The Mayor on 01-Dec-2003 08:52:13 (#5594)

"The dealer's probability of busting, as a function of ten density, appears to maximize (.295) with about 41% tens in the deck."

To begin with there are 16 tens out of 52 cards for 30.76% tens.

Now, if we just remove non T's, then the 41% threshold is reached when 13 non-T's have been removed (16/39 = 41.03%).

If you wanted to develop a perfect count just for this facet alone it would be:

Non-T = +1
Ten = -2.44

and on single deck ... you would take the wager when the RC >= +13 (as above).

--Mayor

Re: Two perspectives from Griffin
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 01-Dec-2003 12:18:58 (#5596)

If this bet exists, what is the pay off structure? Is it +EV?

Blackjack in The Bahamas
Posted by Dschddny on 01-Dec-2003 09:55:08 (#5595)

How does blackjack in The Bahamas compare to bj in Atlantic City? What are the most common conditions in The Bahamas?

Thanks.

Re: Blackjack in The Bahamas
Posted by Dschddny on 18-Dec-2003 13:54:28 (#5844)

Does anyone know about blackjack in the Bahamas? I'm going in February and I want to know what to expect.

Thanks in advance, for any info at all.

Mayor's Podium
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 01-Dec-2003 12:36:54 (#5598)

Looks like our errected officals are sleeping again! Someone get the shariff to blast his shot gun off in the Mayor's office and wake his gal-darned....wha? He ain't in the office? Don't tell me he took up golf! I know he isn't in school like he said he was going to be. Where in the blue blazes is he? OH! Out posting at BJ21 again? Goodness gracious, great balls of fire! Get yur self back her Mayor! Yur public awaits thee!! Have them thar November and December per diums on the managers desk ASAP or someone will vote you down to washing chips at the El Cortez. ;>

Here is a link
Posted by The Mayor on 01-Dec-2003 15:08:51 (#5605)

This will be up in a few days:

http://www.cardcounter.com/podiums/podium_12_2003.htm

Re: Here is a link
Posted by SammyBoy on 01-Dec-2003 16:28:10 (#5606)

Mayor, you may have done for the Big 6 Wheel what Thorp's book did for BJ. ;-)

Banned!!
Posted by Victoria on 01-Dec-2003 17:52:00 (#5607)

I want to be the first. Banned by a casino for counting revolutions on the big wheel. Can see it now, random rotation generators added to every wheel.

Re: Banned!!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 01-Dec-2003 21:23:30 (#5612)

You will not be the first. I've read a similar story elseware about three years ago. The trick is to not play it too hard, and not tell anyone about it. ;> I wonder what the Las Vegas Big 6 Wheel Mafia has to say about this. The shot Kennedy for much less!

Coutermeasure noticed on the strip
Posted by Victoria on 02-Dec-2003 11:29:39 (#5617)

Rob

You got me thinking. At one of the places in Vegas, I noticed that when you walk in the main entrance you see two big wheels with tall show girls working them. Since these ladies are tall and strong enough to give the wheel random spins, this casino may have taken measures already against teams of revolution counters.

Re: Coutermeasure noticed on the strip
Posted by The Mayor on 02-Dec-2003 13:14:25 (#5619)

What I noticed in looking at a lot of these wheels is that the rubber stoppers are very "loose" so that the wheel easily spins 10 times before stopping, and the stopping seems to take forever as it barely makes it in to about 20 more spaces. It's almost as if they don't exist.

The key is finding a weak spinner and a wheel that has firm stoppers. These are rare, but are the basic ingredients. Next, make sure the spinner looks bored, as if she is on automatic pilot. Finally, make sure the wheel has two 40-1 payoff spaces, or else you will be there a long time waiting for your one to line up.

--Mayor

Gets the mind working!
Posted by Sonny on 01-Dec-2003 18:08:02 (#5608)

Ah, another masterpiece! This is even better than the Wiz's advantage play technique for "Flip-It!"

BTW, how long will it be before the "Big 6" teams swoop in and burn the game out?

-Sonny-

Re: Gets the mind working!
Posted by Big Cowboy on 02-Dec-2003 09:09:53 (#5615)

Mr. Mayor,

I love how this web site really does open up one's mind to possibilities. I'll never look at a wheel of fortune the same again.

Re: Gets the mind working!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 03-Dec-2003 13:56:27 (#5639)

I have heard they will not let Pat-Say-Jack play the big 6 in LV. And those tall show girls? hehehe Crossdressing Carney's! laugh

Hey Mayor!
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 02-Dec-2003 16:06:23 (#5621)

Don�t you want to credit the source of the �seed� that helped with your wheel discovery?

You did have a 105% advantage on the bet, but you didn�t have 105% overall. I assume you made some $1 and $2 bets on the 1:1 shot (the lowest house edge bet), so the wheel would keep spinning while you waited for the 40:1 shot to �line up�.

It would look strange to only play occasionally, plunking down max 40:1 bets, and then not betting. Your cover bets, in between your �I FEEL LUCKY� max bets, have to be considered when calculating your EV.

If you can find a wheel that is being played with 1 or 2 others (where do all the suckers come from?) that could be good too. That way you can �wong out� for a few spins while waiting for the jackpot to line up, and not be as noticeable.

Another Minor Point:
Beware of the wheel spinners who decide to give you an extra hard spin �for luck� when they see you bet the 40:1 shot. Some might do it on purpose, sort of like a dealer giving you the premature shuffle up when you bet big in BlackJack. You have to keep the dealer in his natural rhythm, so he keeps spinning the wheel consistently.

Scenario of a future TV show:
Since most of the big wheels are placed in front of the casinos near the entrance, can you imagine someone sitting outside (high power binoculars, super zoom lens) monitoring the wheel. Or perhaps from way across the casino floor with a tiny hidden micro camera feeding the van outside. Then the secret radio transmission to the hidden ear piece of the �drunk� at the bar. BET ON THE JOKER NOW!!! Drunk staggers over to the wheel, throws a chunk of money on the spot after missing the entire table a couple of times, and ... ...

Abraham?
Posted by Victoria on 02-Dec-2003 17:34:46 (#5623)

Abraham

I think you have been watching too much of that new comedy on NBC called Vegas, but when they run the big wheel episode make sure you get paid.

Re: Hey Mayor!
Posted by The Mayor on 02-Dec-2003 20:07:04 (#5625)

>Don�t you want to credit the source of the �seed� that helped with your wheel discovery?

You are right -- thanks to Grosjean for his insights in "Beyond Countin". Also there is a story about it in the Green Chip archives at bj21.com. Both of these prove that for a long time the game has been known to be beatable in the right circumstances.

>You did have a 105% advantage on the bet, but you didn�t have 105% overall. I assume you made some $1 and $2 bets on the 1:1 shot (the lowest house edge bet), so the wheel would keep spinning while you waited for the 40:1 shot to �line up�.

You are right again, but usually because she was so accurate, I would bet on the 20-1 that was in her range while waiting for the 40-1's.

>It would look strange to only play occasionally, plunking down max 40:1 bets, and then not betting. Your cover bets, in between your �I FEEL LUCKY� max bets, have to be considered when calculating your EV.

Yes, I considered writing all that, but didn't think it need be said. You are right though. I lost a lot of bets waiting.

>If you can find a wheel that is being played with 1 or 2 others (where do all the suckers come from?) that could be good too. That way you can �wong out� for a few spins while waiting for the jackpot to line up, and not be as noticeable.

Or else, get a team all betting house max on the 40-1 then house-min on the 1-1 8-)

>Another Minor Point:
Beware of the wheel spinners who decide to give you an extra hard spin �for luck� when they see you bet the 40:1 shot. Some might do it on purpose, sort of like a dealer giving you the premature shuffle up when you bet big in BlackJack.

At some points her spin suddenly became chaotic and unpredictible, but that didn't last long (a couple of spins) then it would settle in again. The point is that everyone at the table had to look and act bored, and no new people could come to the table -- then she would get this blank stare and just spin it the way she always did.

>You have to keep the dealer in his natural rhythm, so he keeps spinning the wheel consistently.

Yes. Boredom is the key to beating the wheel. If you get excited when you win, it is all over for a few spins. I think getting a spinner on Thorazine would be optimal.

Take care,

--Mayor

Re: Hey Mayor!
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 03-Dec-2003 09:46:31 (#5630)

You Da Man, Mayor!

Thanks for your insights.

I think the secretly slipping the spinner some Thorazine will be a part of next week's TV script.

Re: Hey Mayor!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 03-Dec-2003 14:00:23 (#5640)

I'll send them your URL if you like??? laugh

Just One of Those Days!
Posted by SammyBoy on 01-Dec-2003 13:26:27 (#5599)

I took a severe beating the other day, I lost 28 max bets over a couple of sessions. This will really make you start thinking about life. I climbed back into the saddle a few days later and got 60 units back, but not enough to get the bankroll back to where it should be. I did have something interesting happen to me while playing. The count skyrocketed, +22 TC (AOII) and I pushed out 2 max bets. The dealer has a 10 showing and I hold my breath as he checks for BJ. Whew! No blackjack, now I confidently check my first hand, expecting a 20, possibly even a BJ. DAMN! I draw a 10 and a 5 for 15, knowing I can't possibly take a hit, I tuck my cards. Now, surely my second hand will be a BJ or at least a 20. I couldn't believe my eyes, 10 and 6 for a 16. I was the last player so I tucked it as well. I'm sitting there just knowing all is lost, not believing I could possibly get 2 stiffs with such a monster count. The dealer flips over his hole card, before I can see it I'm practically pushing my chips into his tray. I look up and could not believe my eyes! He had a 6 in the hole for 16, then draws a face card and busts!!! What an awesome feeling! Just when you think all is lost the improbable happens. What a rollercoaster ride this game is.

Re: Just One of Those Days!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 01-Dec-2003 13:53:07 (#5600)

You just gotta love those play indices. Yeah baby YEAH!

Re: Just One of Those Days!
Posted by The Mayor on 01-Dec-2003 14:11:52 (#5602)

The ones I recall are -- details same as yours execpt -- dealer turns over a 6 and then, just as you guessed -- an ace.

It goes both ways.

I don't recall the good ones like I recall the bad ones -- selective memory is a bitch.

--Mayor

A Poem, by Henry Gibson
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 01-Dec-2003 14:29:07 (#5604)

Yee shall draw near
What you do fear
While blessings race some down
And overtake them

Hey SammyBoy
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 01-Dec-2003 22:06:16 (#5613)

Makes it all just that much more fun when you win 2 chunky hands when your otherwise up zhit creek with D showin' 10. LOL :-))))))))))

Also amazing how sometimes we're sitting there basking in the glory of the moment with 2 chunky hands, D's showin' 8, we have a pair of faces on each and then D somehow makes a 5 card 21 out of a +20 TC. Go figure. Happened to me a couple of weeks ago. Oh what a bellyache. whine whine

Stealth

Re: Just One of Those Days!
Posted by BradRod on 04-Dec-2003 21:57:22 (#5658)

I have been having one of those days for about 5 sleeples days over the past week and a half in 4 different casinos in 3 different cities, 3states and 2 countries. Fortunately I am still positive for the year but I have been taking a real pounding. I am still giving the game the opportunity to kiss and make it up to me.

This morning I was playing one hand in a very high count shoe game - UBZII and got a series of about 6 hands of T-6 or 5 (the dealer consistently showing a T up through the whole shoe - and actually shoe after shoe. He was also making hands of 19-21 almost routinely. either in the first two cards or drew as many as three or four cards to make the totals. This went on hand after regardless of how the count fluctuated -2 to +5 TC) I waived the hand off each time and the dealer either had the pat card underneath or drew to make his hand again regardless of the hole card. If the hole card was an 8 he drew a 2 or 3, hole card a 5 he drew a 5 or 6. Nearly with out fail and not once busting. The only consolation to me was that my waiving off 15 and 15 drove the ploppies away from the table.

Recent Vegas Trip
Posted by Big Cowboy on 02-Dec-2003 10:52:11 (#5616)

I don't go to Vegas too often but usually look forward to playing BJ since I don't get too many opportunities to do that at home also. Too busy usually is the excuse. But when the opportunity presents itself, I don't say to to Vegas. Whenever I go, it is always a jolt to breathe the air there. The cigarette and cigar smoke just hits you so hard, it usually almost knocks me down. Keep in mind though that when I'm winning, I'll inhale people's BO, flatulence, cigarette smoking, and ploppy play. But when I lose, anything and everything annoys me. So let's just say, a lot of things annoyed me on my trip. Also, I use the Hi-OptI and play shoes. I know. I know. I've heard the comments from the good people on this board, but that is what I'm comfortable using for now and have done well in the past.
There weren't as many Asians around when I played which is usually a good thing. No offense, but the Asians, especially from Hong Kong, with too much money and no smarts really do astonish me with their play. Saw a guy from HK bet $5000 on a single hand, lost it, and acted nonchalantly when his money was gone. He was most definitely not an advantage player. Also loved the Vietnamese woman who told me how to play my hands, especially loudly when I had an A5 to a dealer 4 and told me not to double down but to stand. This from a woman who stayed on 12 when the dealer had a ten. I won my A5 double down, and she lost on her stay 12. She still never shut up.
Three other areas of note. I have no idea why people play at tables with CSMs. I just consider any casino that offers those games as gutless and playing dirty pool. It doesn't say a lot for those ploppies who mistakenly play them thinking that they are playing blackjack. That also goes for 6:5 blackjack. Why in God's name do people play games where the casino is essentially loading the dice? It's just dumb, stupid, ignorant. Remember the immortal words of Dean Wormer (which fit well with the people who play by the above rules): Fat, drunk, and stupid is no way to go through life son. Finally, players all the time mention that they play by the book. I think they mean basic strategy. The trouble is the basic strategy they're trying to play is usually undecipherable to me. I don't know what book they're reading, but it must have been written by the same guy who wrote "How to Lose Money and Still Enjoy Yourselves."
Pounded the pavement like Mr. Mayor, except I do it to look for good BJ rules. Please correct any wrong information that I am about to provide. Played a little at the Frontir even with the litigation story on this web site about that casino. Lost a couple of units. Played more just to get warmed up more than anything. (6D, H17, LS, 67% penetration) The penetration was a red flag. Also, I kinda wish some of these casinos would get a clue and actually do some cleaning at their place. Is that too much to ask for?
Did not play at the Stadust. Many $5 tables available. (6D, H17, do not recall penetration or surrender status)
Played a little at the Rivera. The rules there have not changed in many years for 6 decks. Not too many people there. A lot of tables open. (70%-75% penetration, 6 decks, DAS, split aces, S17, no LS) Won five units. Not a bad place to play, but I thought I could find better.
Did not play at the Venetia. (8D, H17) I hate playing eight decks.
The Flaming is a good place to play. I never make any money there, but the rules are not too bad. (80% penetration, 6 decks, H17, DAS, LS, dealer burns a card with each change in dealer) The penetration kept me there but still lost 35 units. A lot of tables open for use. Could not win my double downs and splits regularly. The TC would be nicely positive, but I never got the double down cards which made me feel somewhat comfortable. Frustrating to keep losing like that, especially when the other players who were not even playing basic strategy appearred to be winning.
Ball's. Did not play there. (8D, H17, LS) I thought the rules were inferior.
This place used to be a favorite of mine. Now I just avoid it.
The Lion used to be my favorite place to play, but they keep making it harder to play there. It's big and open. However, they used to have a lot more tables with good rules, but I noticed that a lot more of their tables were H17. It is still 6D, DAS, LS, 75% penetration. They only had a small number of S17 tables available. Definitely read the table rules before sitting down. I noticed this trend at Cheezers also. On a previous trip I remember losing a hand when the dealer surprised me when she improved her hand on a soft 17. I thought I had won the hand, until more cards were pulled out. Again, had trouble winning my double downs. It was almost like a cooler sat down next to me, except I was never winning much in the first place.
Aladsin. Didn't play there. (8D, S17) It's hard enough to get good counts with 6 decks. I just don't like playing eight.
The Volcano. Did not play there. You had to play $25 minimum hands in order to get a six deck game. It was either that or play the CSMs. No thank you. The $25 minimum is too rich for my bankroll. But this place was still crowded even with the predominance of the CSMs. Go figure.
At the Volcano's next door neighbor is now the siren singing, freaky casino. Still bad rules there as usual. Did not play. There was one $5 2-deck game, owtherwise, there were a ton of CSMs. Gag.
The Circus. Did not play there. (6D, S17, no LS; or 2D, H17, BJ pays 6:5) I used to like playing there. The fun has gone away for me there.
Harry's. Did not play there. (8D, H17) It sure does not look like a fun mardi gras in there.
Did not play in France. They still had 8D with H17. The French seem to be trying to get the better of the American tourist.
At the Japanese Palace, played a little. Still as dirty and smelly as ever. (6D, 67% pen, H17, no LS). Bad shoe rules. Great looking cocktail waitresses. I tried playing 2 decks for the first time, but figured out the rules aren't very good. (No LS, H17, 50% pen) Lost one unit. Only played face down because I was the only one playing. Still could not get a good run. Left when the dealer suggested I look for another table. I guess I whined too much.
The Bellagio still has too many CSMs. It really caters to the crowd which supposedly has a larger bankroll, but those CSMs just keep me away. No good reason to play there.
So I ended up mostly at Cheezers. It is a comfortable place to play. They've split their casino into two areas. A richer, high-roller area and a not as rich area. Lowest minimum was $10. A lot of tables to choose from, but again read the table rules for hit and stand 17. Otherwise, it was 6D, LS, DAS, split aces. Maybe I am just mistaken, but I thought the penetration for the H17 tables was consistently 80% and for the S17 around 75%. The other thing of note is that at 4:00 AM, those $10 minimum tables close down for awhile, and the table minimums offered are $25 and up. Annoying since the rules and the ambience in my opinion make the casino a good place to play. It's large and open, and the smoky air was bearable, but the cocktail waitresses need more help. They don't seem to hire enough of them, and with the ones that they have in their skimpy outfits, really need a lot more makeup or a lot more alcohol for me. Of course, my luck with double downs and splits followed me there also.
It was not the best of trips. I ended up being down about 100 units overall. Disappointing, but understandable. I kept my mistakes to a minimum by wonging out when the TC was unbearably negative or if I had any inkling that I had lost the actual count. Used the betting scheme suggested by the Mayor based on the TC. Unfortunately sometimes bad cards happen to good people. Wait until next time. Those double down and split hands really made the difference. I hope my descriptions are helpful. I wanted to provide the table rules to help those who may not know even though I understand that the more veteran crowd here probably deems that to be redundant info for them. No grand excitement or arrests (me). I usually go for clean winning and fun. Did not touch a thing that the hispanic guys were handing out. All I can say, wait until the next time. Good luck to you all, and take as much as you can.

Thanks for the report
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 02-Dec-2003 16:09:18 (#5622)

A very good post. Continue to hit them where it hurts.

You bring up a very interesting question:

6D, DOA, DAS, LS, split aces.
H17 � 80% Pen.
S17 � 75% Pen.

Which is the better game? S17 has lower BS house edge, but at what kind of large spread does the H17 80% Pen become the game to play? LS really helps when it comes to comparing pen type questions like this also, since it is going to help cut down the variance of a monster spread.

What about Wong possibilities? Wouldn�t it be better to Wong the inferior rule (but better Pen game) with large bets? Won�t the advantage situations present themselves slightly more frequently leading to better per hour return?

With a normal 1:10 spread, how much more pen do you need over a 75% S17 to make the H17 game better?

Great report
Posted by The Mayor on 02-Dec-2003 19:59:10 (#5624)

You really covered the shoe action on the strip. Hopefully next trip you will not be as "annoyed".

The H17/S17 thing is not big at all -- especially compared to decent penetration and getting LSR.

Thanks again for taking the time to share with us,

--Mayor

Re: S17 vs H17
Posted by V-man on 03-Dec-2003 13:44:16 (#5636)

Calculator on Casino Verite web site has the following results in SCORE:

- 6D, S17, DAS, LS, fair pen (78 cards). Spread 12, play Hi-lo I18 & F4 SCORE=30.67 and N0=32656
- 6D, H17, DAS, LS, good pen (52 cards). Spread 12, play Hi-lo I18 & F4 SCORE=36.25 and N0=27531

Of course, the difference between 78 & 52 is huge. I don't have the software to run the pen in between, my guess is the S17 slightly edges H17 with 75% & 80%.

3 to 1 suited bj
Posted by pat on 03-Dec-2003 08:00:55 (#5626)

what is the player edge on 3 to 1 SUITED bj?

Re: 3 to 1 suited bj
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 03-Dec-2003 10:33:57 (#5631)

It all depends on what you are giving up to get this feature.

Re: 3 to 1 suited bj
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 03-Dec-2003 13:51:28 (#5638)

They still giving away free weekends in January at Circus Circus for a suited BJ's?

Re: 3 to 1 suited bj
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 03-Dec-2003 10:57:37 (#5632)

That would add approximately 1.5% to the player.

They must have some other rules to offset this advantage, right?

Re: 3 to 1 suited bj
Posted by The Mayor on 03-Dec-2003 15:18:38 (#5644)

First card is an Ace -- 4/52.
Second card is a Ten of the same suit -- 4/51.

Probability of suited blackjack: 2*(4/52)*(4/51) = .012066

We are gaining an extra 1.5 units with probability .012066, so this rule would add 1.5*(.012066) = .018099 = 1.81% to our expectation.

This is for single deck.

Casino Royale has this rule when you get a new card -- it used to pay off on a $100 max bet, now it only pays this on a $25 max bet.

--Mayor

3-1 party time!
Posted by Sonny on 08-Dec-2003 10:43:50 (#5703)

Sounds like Pat was gearing up for Terrible's big anniversary bonus last Saturday! Suited BJs paid 3-1 from 6pm-Midnight. The top bet for the bonus was $50 per hand, but you could get away with up to two spots at once. Although, around 8:00 they were telling people to only play one hand becuase they were so busy. It was a hell of a party!

-Sonny-

16 vs Dealer 10
Posted by Dschddny on 03-Dec-2003 08:28:45 (#5627)

I read that when you have a 16 vs a dealer 10, you should stand if the TC is 0 or more. This doesn't make sense to me, specifically when the TC equals exactly 0. Isn't the basic strategy play to hit? If the TC is 0, shouldn't that equate to the basic strategy play?

Thanks!

Re: 16 vs Dealer 10
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 03-Dec-2003 13:48:24 (#5637)

it is actually >0, so even an RC of +1 makes this the right call. Now someone will say it is actually an RC of 2.43 or something to prove me wrong...smile

This is one of those plays that counting will help you with in a one deck game online. 4,4,6,2 vs 10 STAND

Re: 16 vs Dealer 10
Posted by Dschddny on 04-Dec-2003 09:59:13 (#5648)

Could you (or someone else) please post the correct Ill 18 table?

Thank you very much!

Re: 16 vs Dealer 10 *LINK* *PIC*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 04-Dec-2003 15:00:25 (#5652)

Sure:

http://webhome.idirect.com/~blakjack/flashadv.htm

Re: 16 vs Dealer 10
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 04-Dec-2003 16:34:13 (#5653)

I use a different index number for a few of these plays:

9 vs 7 +3
12 vs 6 -2
13 vs 2 -1
12 vs 2 +3

And you might make note that being off by +1/-1 on any one particular play, really doesn't matter!

So I don't know why I even brought it up.

Some you might want to add:

s19 vs 6 +1
s19 vs 5 +2
8 vs 6 +2
8 vs 5 +3
s18 vs 2 +1
s17 vs 2 >0 (otherwise hit.)

A,2 vs 5 never double, just hit.

8 VS 5,6
Posted by BradRod on 04-Dec-2003 21:21:51 (#5657)

>>>>Some you might want to add:

..........................
.........
8 vs 6 +2
8 vs 5 +3
........................
......................<<<<<<<<<<<

ABRAHAM,

ARE YOU SAYING THAT ABOVE THESE COUNTS IT IS BETTER TO DOBLE ON A PAIR OF 4'S RATHER THAN SPLIT IN A SHOE GAME ? OR ARE THESE BASIC STARTEGY VARIATION FOR SINGLE DECK ?

Re: 8 VS 5,6
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 05-Dec-2003 08:41:22 (#5660)

Where did I say that?

When some one says stand on 16 vs 10 when the count is > 0, does that mean don't split 8s?

You still split the 4,4 vs 5 or 6 in a DAS game. If the count is +2 or more then you would double down on 6,2 or 5,3.

Double Down on 8 vs 5 or 6 is basic strategy for single deck, and in a multiple deck game with a high enough positive count it is the move to make there.

thanks for clarification *NM*
Posted by BradRod on 05-Dec-2003 09:39:29 (#5661)

Internet Blackjack
Posted by Dschddny on 03-Dec-2003 08:30:06 (#5628)

This may be a dumb question, but is card counting at all useful when playing internet blackjack?

Thanks.

Re: Internet Blackjack
Posted by Sonny on 03-Dec-2003 11:44:11 (#5634)

> This may be a dumb question, but is card counting at all useful
> when playing internet blackjack?
>
> Thanks.

Since they shuffle the decks after every hand, card counting will not create any sort of advantage in playing online. It may help you on certain "close call" playing hands, but you will not have any long-term advantage over the house.

The ONLY advantage in online blackjack comes from the bonuses they give you. If they give you more money than you expect to lose by playing, you will be playing a winning game.

-Sonny-

Re: Internet Blackjack *LINK*
Posted by Barry Meadow on 12-Dec-2003 12:28:11 (#5780)

Occasionally you will run into a one-deck game and get a 16 vs. a 10 with three or four small cards; counting, you'd stand rather than hit.

With most software, all decks are reshuffled after every hand. As Sonny says, your edge is with the bonuses, not from counting.

Barry Meadow

author, Crushing The Internet Casinos

New guy
Posted by Ace High on 03-Dec-2003 08:42:15 (#5629)

Hi, I'm new to Nevada, And the casino Scene. I have read a book lent to me by a friend, But am curious as to what peoples thoughts are on a simple effective count system?

Thanks Ya'll

Ace High

Re: New guy
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 03-Dec-2003 11:02:59 (#5633)

I think an effective count system would be a good thing.
If it is simple than it would be even better.

No complaints from me about simple and effective, seems to be a good combination.

Unbalanced, single-level no side-count KO is about as simple, yet effective, as you can get. HiLo would probably be next, then HI-OPT I if you want to go the side-count route, else RPC if you want to go multi-level.

Simple Count *LINK*
Posted by Mr Pill on 03-Dec-2003 11:47:33 (#5635)

Ace,

If you can get a hold of a copy of Blackbelt in Blackjack (out of print) by Arnold Snyder, this has the unbalanced Red 7 count. It is a very easy count to learn and utilize and has done well for me and my casual play over the last 4 or 5 years (always positive at years end).

I guess it will depend on what your goals are. For me currently, it is just a hobby that pays for itself. I enjoy getting out and playing at the tables and seeing all the different types of people. My wife enjoys playing and is very proficient at basic strategy and will sometimes follow my betting, but not too close.

As my kids get older and I can devote more time to playing, I might expand my play and start doing a true count for a true bet estimation with the Red 7, which is also covered in this book. Or I might change counts all together.

I have about six more years and I can then retire at 80% salary (I will then only be 51). At that time I might play more hours per year, persue tournament play or ??.

If you can't find the book visit the link below. The link contains alot of the text of the book and will give you a feel for the Red 7 count.

Good Luck,
Pill

P.S. Anyone know if Arnold has a new edition planned?

Re: Simple Count *LINK*
Posted by Mr Pill on 03-Dec-2003 14:53:56 (#5641)

Another good post I had bookmarked from the Card Counter Cafe is below.

It talks about comparing the Balanced versus Unbalanced counts including the Red 7.

I play mostly 6 deck in Michigan and as the link points out its downfall is playing it against single deck. Due to the fact that it "estimates" TC due to it's unbalanced design, the fewer decks in play the bigger this factor is. But even with this in mind, the unbalanced count is still something to consider for your first count.

Pill

Re: Simple Count
Posted by Ace High on 03-Dec-2003 15:17:47 (#5643)

Thanks for the link Phil, Looks like I have more home work.

I enjoy playing BJ, I would like to last a little longer with my money though. The guy that leant me the book wasn't up on it at all, so I need to learn a lot of things.
I am and have been reading the past post, in hopes to bring me somewhat up to date. And I see I need to overcome detractions, Such as Cocktail girls at the table, and the noisy players that want to talk. I need full focus at this time, Someday, I'm sure it will become second nature.

The HI-LO is what I have been working on.

Thanks, Again

Ace High

Re: New guy
Posted by Alex on 03-Dec-2003 15:04:03 (#5642)

I would advise you to learn the Hi-Lo system with I18 indexes. That's all you ever need to play the game.

Now, if you are interested to make money from this game then as Don was saying in his book: �Technical ability comes through dedication and practice. But most of all, this game takes an incredible amount of heart. It takes an iron will and a fierce determination to succeed. It takes physical stamina, nerves of steel, and an inordinate amount of discipline and self-control. Without all of the latter, the former (technical skills) are meaningless.�

Alex

Re: New guy
Posted by Lars on 24-Jan-2004 15:22:18 (#6361)

If i were you i would give the K-O system a try and compare it to the Hi-Lo and use the one that seems easier or better for you...

The Hot Shoe documentary *LINK*
Posted by David Layton on 03-Dec-2003 19:13:20 (#5645)

I want to let everyone know about my card counting documentary that is finally finished and available to the public. I recognize some posters' handles from other sites, so many of you might know about it already, but I'm trying to get the word out everywhere.

It's a 95-minute movie about the history, mathematics, politics and culture of card counting. We tell the story through interviews with Ed Thorp, Stanford Wong, Peter Griffin, Ian Andersen, Arnold Snyder, Anthony Curtis, Tommy Hyland, Olaf Vancura, members of the MIT team and many other blackjack experts. We talk to people who try to identify and stop counters as well as professional players and authors. I think it's the most complete and accurate treatment of the subject ever made.

I'll be showing the movie at film festivals and some special screenings over the next year, but it's also available for sale right now on our website: www.thehotshoemovie.com and at the Gamblers Book Shop and some other places. Check the website for screening info over the next months.

Thanks, David Layton

Re: The Hot Shoe documentary *LINK* *PIC*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 04-Dec-2003 10:08:54 (#5649)

Find my review here:

http://webhome.idirect.com/~blakjack/hotshoe.htm

EXCELLENT REVIEW
Posted by Learning to count on 04-Dec-2003 13:49:43 (#5650)

I SENT FOR MY COPY! THANKS ROB YOU SOLD ME!

Re: EXCELLENT REVIEW
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 04-Dec-2003 14:40:59 (#5651)

You'll just love it. You'll be checking the mail box like a kid waiting for a reply from Santa, trust me. Just like I keep checking for my review copy of Barry Meadow's Crushing the Internet Casinos......boohoohoo! BJF only took three days. Must be all the Christmas cards or something.

LTC, Money Well Spent *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 04-Dec-2003 16:35:37 (#5654)

Vegas Results
Posted by CowboyKO on 03-Dec-2003 19:48:00 (#5646)

Well, my first Vegas trip ended in the black for me which was encouraging. Played downtown exclusively but was coming off the flu so I did not have the energy to hammer out that much playing time at the tables as I would have liked. I put in about six hours and came out 83 units ahead overall. Most of my time was spent at DD at the Fitz, 4 Queens, Fremont, and Lady Luck. Penetration at all these places seemed to be dealer dependent with the Fitz offering the best overall avg. pen at about 65-70%. Penetration at 4 Queens was consistently poor with around 50% or even less. Fremont was somewhat better with about 60% as was Lady Luck, although one dealer at the LL would shuffle up when my max bets came out. Result for each venue: Fitz +35 units, 4 Queens +11 units, Fremont +8 units, and LL -3 units. I only spent a short but profitable time playing SD at the Horseshoe where I ended up +32 units.

I have an upcoming trip to Reno and would like to know if you guys would recommend any nice places to stay. Unfortunately the saying �don�t let the bed bugs bite� was all too true when I decided to stay at the cheapest hotel possible when I went to Vegas.

Good Luck to all.
CKO

Re: Vegas Results
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 03-Dec-2003 21:47:52 (#5647)

I stay at the Wells Ave. Motel 6 when I go to Reno, just out of cheapness and habit. I'll be playing enough to get comped a room when I go next time, but Reno is a scary place and I think I'd rather be sleeping someplace the casino doesn't know about if I get busted for counting. Remember they can chase you away from BJ only, throw you out of the casino, or throw you off the premises entirely which includes the hotel. Motel 6 is always clean and convenient, and they don't charge for local or 800 phone calls.

Places to stay in Reno
Posted by count running on 04-Dec-2003 20:18:09 (#5656)

In Reno I like the Sands. Cheap (and I mean CHEAP) room rates, and walkable to all of downtown. The rooms are truely nice, and the gym/spa is free to guests (and with a phenomenal view). Decent low-roller BJ.

Don't miss the $0.99 breakfast (served all day) at the Cal-Neva, and the free internet access and cup o' joe at the little cyber cafe on S. Victoria (the main drag) just across the river from the casinos. Man I love Reno!

Best places to play right now (IMHO) are S*enna, A*lantis, Circ-Circ. Doomtown has become unbearably sweaty, and dealers like to pref. shuffle on you. Also avoid H*rrah's, El Blurado, Sliver Legacy.

Re: Places to stay in Reno
Posted by CowboyKO on 05-Dec-2003 19:54:41 (#5668)

How is the heat at the joints in Sparks? It appears that the condtions there are generally better with the exception of maybe the S*enna in Reno. Thanks for the responses.
CKO

Re: Places to stay in Reno
Posted by Running Count on 08-Dec-2003 12:48:06 (#5704)

The S*enna is not in Sparks -- it's in downtown Reno. The Sparks places are a mixed bag. Baldeenies and Rail Spity are dumps where even low red action is enough to bring down the house. They notice anyone under 50, not a trucker or local, betting more than $10 a hand. The Nugg has dropped its single-deck pit and now offers mostly 2D with decent pen. I hardly ever play there anymore.

If you don't have a car, stay in downtown and play in downtown (except maybe a trip down Virginia to Atlanpermill.

Have fun,

p.s. Thanks, Admin, for hooking me back up.

Re: Places to stay in Reno
Posted by maple on 14-Jan-2004 00:13:02 (#6179)

Stay at Boomtown, very friendly, no heat 5-25, generous with comps,
have never paid for a meal there yet, just have to ask, they give you
a meal comp.
free room offers come in the mail
every 2 months, we've stayed there free about 4 times, getting 4 nights
free as we both get offers and book them back to back.
Stayed at Atlantis once and liked it then went out to this Boowtown and
signed up for a players card and the room offers started coming and we've never looked back and they have all only single-deck. Boomtown
is about 7 minutes west of Reno towards Sacramento.

The Mayors Podium for December
Posted by Learning to count on 04-Dec-2003 20:08:12 (#5655)

I dont know about clocking the big wheel Eliot but as usual you will have to show me how it works! I'm game! We will see! So far your guidance has been a positive EV ride for me!!!!!! Hey I just recieved Anthony Curtis' Las Vegas Advisor lite news letter. CC.Com was name pick of the week for Black Jack Players! Wow CC.Com is becoming a real pro type AP web site!!!!!!!

Very nice
Posted by The Mayor on 05-Dec-2003 12:39:58 (#5663)

It is an honor that Anthony Curtis mentioned this site in his newsletter, and it is a tribute to the excellence of the individuals who contribute their knowledge and experience here.

As for the big six wheel -- finding a playable one is rarer than finding a major league baseball player who doesn't use "supplements" -- but keep looking!

Just remember -- EVERY GAME can be beaten legally under the right circumstances.

--Mayor

Re: Very nice
Posted by BradRod on 05-Dec-2003 12:55:49 (#5664)

>>>>>Just remember -- EVERY GAME can be beaten legally under the right circumstances.

Thanks for showing us how we can find them.

KO count question
Posted by sprettster on 05-Dec-2003 00:36:40 (#5659)

Unbalanced counts have always been a mystery to me, so I�m learning the KO to see what it�s all about. In �KO Blackjack� by Vancura and Fuchs, they say that for a 6D game you should start the running count at �20 off the top, and when the RC reaches �4 you should bet up. What I don�t get is that since the imbalance per deck is +4, the RC will on average reach �4 after four decks have been dealt, which would be equivalent to a TC=0 situation. It seems to me that �bet up at �4� doesn�t work here. Can someone tell me where I�m going wrong?

sprettster

Good Question
Posted by Titaniumman on 06-Dec-2003 14:51:26 (#5680)

You're not really missing anything.

I wrote this in a post on Greenchip in early September:
KO starts off indicating an exaggerated negative situation when too many cards remain undealt to gain much of an advantage anyway. KO then slowly climbs up as cards are dealt since every deck adds up to +4. If the remaining cards are rich in big cards, KO would have climbed faster than average. When and if the KO count goes sufficiently positive to indicate a desirable situation, penetration has also been achieved to fairly match the positive indication.

Of course, you demonstrate that you have a pretty good handle on this concept. The thing you must understand is that KO is an extremely simple counting system, and therefore trades off some of its effectivity for that simplicity.

Thankfully, the loss of effectivity is not enough to keep KO from being competitive with other counting systems.

The betting ramp that V&F recommend is calculated for through the entire shoe, and not for one particular point.

The Key Count is the Key
Posted by Ohio_Jones on 06-Dec-2003 18:10:23 (#5682)

V&F describe -4 as the key count in the 6D game. Uston SS, Red Sevens and UBZII keep the pivot point at 0 by taking the final running count x number of decks and then subtract that from 0 to create a negative IRC. V&F do the same thing except subtract from 4 and call it the key count whereby they still refer to the pivot point as 0. I would be curious to know why you would change from AOII after 10 years? If it is just the TC conversions I would suggest the UBZII. I don't use that particular system but it seems many people fair well with it in the shoe games.

Re: The Key Count is the Key
Posted by sprettster on 10-Dec-2003 09:21:44 (#5732)

Thanks for the replies. It seems to me that the betting efficiency of the KO is rather weak compared to balanced counts that calculate a TC. Is that just a misconception on my part? Is there a way to strengthen the KO betting efficiency by somehow converting the RC to a TC for betting purposes?

I'm looking at the KO just to understand how unbalanced counts work. I'm quite happy with the AOII as it does well in the 1D and 2D games I usually play.

Sprettster

Re: The Key Count is the Key
Posted by Jim2 on 26-Dec-2003 23:06:12 (#5911)

I have used the KO count for a while, and I notice that with the large negative IRC in shoe games that it is very hard to get to the -5 RC needed to increase the bet spread. If there is a slug of 10 count cards early in the shoe, the count will never get positive. Thats a part of the KO system that I don't like, the simplicity is nice, but there is lots of playing time wasted using basic strategy and a flat bet. It can be frustrating.

I have played quite a few shoes on CVBJ for practice and notice that the count doesn't get to the point of bet ramping very often. This is confirmed my casino play that has the same results.

I have switched to the high low system because of this problem. Conversion of the RC to a TC shouldn't be that difficult.

Re: The Key Count is the Key
Posted by maple on 13-Jan-2004 23:59:28 (#6178)

I think a lot of KO players do as I do. Start any shoe with 0 as an IRC
rather than with a negative number. In a 6 deck shoe, +16 is the key count and time to raise, + 20 for insurance etc. Goes the same for any number of decks, start all at 0 and recalculate.

Re: The Key Count is the Key
Posted by Lars on 24-Jan-2004 15:11:39 (#6360)

the whole point of the K-O system is to keep only one count as opposed to 2 different counts (running and true) with other systems sprettster ... its for simplicity sakes... it doesnt claim to be as more powerful as Omega II or other systems just that its simplier and can be as accurate.. me myself i would rather have only one count (running) in my head then 2.. especially with all the noise of the casino (slots, waitresses in their skimpy dresses, ploppies etc.) and not have to worry about converting a running count to a true count.. or estimating how many decks are left etc.. etc.. anyways other then that i wanted to ask the board if they know where i can purchase the software that accompanies the K-O system or if V & O have a website... thanks..

Re: The Key Count is the Key
Posted by Lars on 24-Jan-2004 18:58:26 (#6368)

oh forget it .. i found the K-O site ... the link is if your interested in exploring the system more etc.. : http://www.koblackjack.com/

the future, the other point of view and it looks bad
Posted by Victoria on 05-Dec-2003 11:18:24 (#5662)

Following discussions on 6/5 and other deteriorations of BJ rules, I find we always look at things from the AP point of view. We say if the casinos will not offer better games (that is code for games that can be beat) we will not play. Well guys, they really do not want us to play. During my recent trip to Vegas the 6/5 single deck tables were full of suckers, the CSM games actually had more ploppys than the hand shuffled games, and games like slots and roulette were busy. Folks, we are not their target audience and we never will be. If the uneducated players don't care and continue to play, if all the new games being introduced have 3% house edges and more, then I am not surprised that casinos study BJ rules, looking for ways that will increase their edge and keep the ploppys at the tables.
Some places offer better rules at higher stakes and though I am not an accountant, it is easily understandable to me. Take that house edge and figure what the "rental" is for your seat at a $5 flat bet for an hour. With 100 hands or $500 bet and an edge of 1% the house makes $5 per hour. They need to make more than that per seat. The places we like make the difference up quite often on the higher stakes players, but casino accountants might not look at it that way. On a higher stakes table, with an average bet of $100, or $10,000 bet per hour and an edge of only .5% they take a rental of $50 per hour, so they can afford better rules. The problem for us is that the same $10,000 on a slot probably makes them $500, over $100 for craps and so on.

If you threw out every machine from a casino and only had blackjack tables, with rules that we like, you probably would have very few casinos. I really think that even with their bad rules, ownership feels that they are keeping blackjack alive as a tradition and income from other games is supporting it.

So at 31 years old, planning to be a partimer for a very long time, you will have to pardon me for wondering if this opportunity will last.

Victoria

Re: the future, the other point of view and it looks bad
Posted by Learning to count on 05-Dec-2003 13:48:38 (#5665)

It is the sin of gambling. People who gamble are degenerates. A degenerate is someone who will destroy his life in order to persue his addiction. The casinos are part of the sin. They offer the addiction that destroys the suckers. We as AP's are also addicted to the game. The differance is that we are addicted to winning. We strive to play games that give us the edge. The casinos and us are on both sides of the greed element of this game. We both want money but we crave the road getting there. Eventually the game will get better or disappear as we know it. Dont fret Victoria there will always be a AP who finds out how to beat the game.

Re: the future, the other point of view and it looks bad
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 06-Dec-2003 05:06:10 (#5671)

We have to look at it this way- we are getting something for nothing now. We are getting paid while providing no useful service to anyone, just because we have certain skills that most don't. On the other hand, the casinos do the same thing.

We are not the problem, in the large casinos me and a hundred guys like me could play every night and they wouldn't miss the money. The problem as I see it is slots. If the Indian casinos in CT had their way there would be nothing but slots. The state of CT takes a 25% vig on all slot revenues in exchange for not putting slot machines in parimutuel facilities, and they still can't stuff slots in there fast enough. The reason is the high cost of Northeastern labor. Every year they import a few thousand workers from Poland to work in those casinos because they can't find locals willing to work for their wage, and slots require very little labor. They can also set them to pay whatever they want.

Anyway there are still plenty of good games out there if you play shoe. The other side is they are replacing normal BJ with those bullshit derivatives. I can't believe how many people play Spanish 21. That game can be beat, but not by enough margin to make it worth it.

Yes, we basically are insignificant, the bad rules are not directed at us.
Posted by Victoria on 06-Dec-2003 10:33:43 (#5673)

I agree that we do little to effect the bottom line of casinos. The point I wanted to make that casino execs even if there were no AP's would still be looking for ways to increase their take on BJ, or as you said, keep introducing variations of the game that have increased edges. They are in business to make money, as much money as possible, as quickly as possible without chasing the ploppys and high rolling types away.
Slots are a great example, no sick days, no benifits, no retirement, no salary,just initial investment and maintenance and the money steadily comes in.
I really do not think the new bad rules in blackjack have anything to do with us but we definately are effected by it.

Currently I think that in order not to chase away their biggest players, the rules for BJ at $25 min and above, are better than the red chip rules in many places. At the same time, green and black chip tables get closer looks from the pit, counters need better cover at these levels and some of us for many reasons do not play at those stakes. A red chip player looking for a decent game needs to do their research to find these games. How the game changes in the future is probably up to those black, purple, and above players, if they balk at bad rules, the houses will do something to make sure they do not go somewhere else. As far as the red chip goes, as I said in my first post, the house just does not make enough to justify renting that seat with a low edge.

red can pay rent at older places only
Posted by John Lewis on 07-Dec-2003 03:52:17 (#5685)

< As far as the red chip goes, as I said in my first post, the house just does not make enough to justify renting that seat with a low edge. >

Red blackjack with standard (fair) rules definitely can't pay the mortgage of new places, most definitely not on the Strip.

But there are still good red games to be had at older places that don't have the mortgage payments. Downtown Vegas and Reno/Northern Nevada are the most notable examples. Hopefully there will always be enough money to be made at good red games to pay the bills at low overhead places like these.

Re: the future, the other point of view and it looks bad
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 06-Dec-2003 10:45:37 (#5674)

You said:

We are getting paid while providing no useful service to anyone, just because we have certain skills that most don't.

It�s the �skills� that we have that allows us to beat certain games. This creates the buzz out there in the gaming world, that it is in fact possible to sit down at a table and win $ time after time. Any player that hears of what it is that we are able to do, will assume that they can, maybe, just possibly do similarly the same by giving it a try with the knowledge they possess. Therefore, essentially we are more of a benefit to the industry than a detriment.

Stealth

The market might correct it....
Posted by Alexander Mundy on 05-Dec-2003 15:39:40 (#5666)

tho I wouldn't "count" on it. Even tho most ploppies don't know the "vig" of most games, they will know, perhaps not individually, but collectively, that they are losing more and faster. They will not have as much fun - playing time -for their money. So, again collectively, a percentage of players will make fewer trips to the casinos and play less BJ. Then, the theory goes, a casinos, trying to fill the empty seats, will offer better games, 7/5 BJ, and eventually 3/2 SD will make a comeback on the strip. (I remember when the strip was mostly SD). Of course I've been waiting for that to happen in Reno (where I reside) for a few years now. In Reno, where business has dropped precipitously and a dozen casinos have closed, they are doing the opposite - worse games, tighter comps, and quicker barrings. The result is empty casinos. I've had this discussion with a few casino executives - on the surface they seem to understand it - maybe even agree with it, but to no avail (the Siena made it's game DOA after a discussion tho I doubt if I persuaded them - they don't let me play anyway - or at least they think that they don't let me play). The horse racing industry has nearly imploded by onerous takeout rates, over 20% including breakage, and has only been saved by simulcasting and slot machines at racetracks. Again, the average horseplayer doesn't know what the takeout is, but they do know that they go broke faster. Unfortuneatly, the market hasn't corrected racing yet either. Even tho NY lowered it's takeout by 3%. The future is rarely as bleak as it appears, there are still a lot of players out there making money playing BJ. Even tho, hit them as hard and as often as possible now - just in case the future really is bleak.

I Wish I Could Find the Post...
Posted by SammyBoy on 05-Dec-2003 16:50:44 (#5667)

There was an older gentleman that has been playing BJ since the 60's that posted (somewhere) that he remembers thinking back then that the game of BJ would not continue as a beatable game for very much longer. Now 40 years later we are wondering the same thing. It seems to me that in the places I play, the games are better now than they were 5 years ago. Maybe one day BJ will die, but I'd bet you that it will live much longer than any of us think it will.

Re: the future, the other point of view and it looks bad
Posted by wongout on 06-Dec-2003 11:01:53 (#5676)

As long as I have been playing (maybe 12 yrs or so) its been nothing but its the end! But I am still playing and games conditions improve and decline. I cant predict the future but suggest that as long as you can play with an acceptable edge...go for it. As the saying goes ..."if it swells..ride it!"

wong out

Let's talk roulette
Posted by V-man on 05-Dec-2003 20:19:43 (#5669)

Advantageplayer.com has a new Roulette section hosted by Laurance Scott. He claims that training his way can reach 20% edge over the house! If this is true (even close to true), playing roulette is way better than 1-2% edge in BJ?

Re: Let's talk roulette (NOT)
Posted by phantom007 on 06-Dec-2003 12:22:33 (#5677)

If this new roulette system is free, I might check it out on the basis of educational interest only. If it is for sale, I would put it in the same stack as "Secrets to Winning the Lottery, only $9.95 + $4.95 Shipping and Handling...
PLEASE DON'T SEND MATCHES".

phantom007.

gaming/roulette and all that
Posted by eyes for 21 on 07-Dec-2003 16:05:08 (#5689)

First of all so many blackjack and gaming guru's try to sell
information for bucks, we like the Mayor because
he doesn't peddle info for cash,and us players
respect that.

-as far a roulette a few players have been known to rack them for
bucks.As for how this will not be discussed here at
least by myself,do your own d and d. The lucky ladies
side bet and royal match were discussed in a few places and now
many casinos have even clamped down on this,for ex.
Vc-doesn't allow your side bet to be larger then your regular
bet. Much information is out there and many feel it doesn't affect
the game adversly but occasionally it does.

To "Seeker" re: bjfonline
Posted by The Mayor on 06-Dec-2003 12:34:27 (#5679)

I pressed the wrong key and deleted your post, I am so sorry. Could you please resubmit.

Thanks.

--Mayor

Not Me!
Posted by phantom007 on 06-Dec-2003 16:29:44 (#5681)

Mayor:

Your post hit my personal e-mail as a message...I am not a "Seeker", well...at least I did not post as "Seeker". Actually am Seeking Poker advice, but this not the place, nor the time....off to PartyPoker.com (with Slansky's Books open while I play)...GRIN!

phantom007.

Repost
Posted by Seeker on 06-Dec-2003 19:49:05 (#5683)

Mayor, I appreciate your concern, but on my screen at least my post still appears. Anyway, I've copied it here in case it really is unavailable to some people. It was in response to BlackJackHack's comment that a defect of other sites, including BJF Online, was that people are referred to books available for sale on the site. (He also mentioned paid portions of a site, which BJFO never had.)

Repost from "Re: bjfonline" thread:

I was one of the BJFO moderators who sometimes mentioned books for sale on the site, so I want to comment on that point.

On the Usenet newsgroup rec.gambling.blackjack, where nothing is for sale, I sometimes answer newbies' questions by pointing them to a book. The simple fact is that, in a few decades' worth of existing blackjack literature, you can find answers to quite a few questions. On RGB I've also given information about where such books can be purchased, including links to bj21.com, ConJelCo.com, and rge21.com.

On BJFO, a site hosted at no charge by Huntington Press, it just seemed tacky to me to refer people to one of HP's competitors. Therefore, when I recommended a book, even if it was a book not published by HP (such as Blackjack Attack, published by RGE), I gave a link to where HP was selling it.

There was no policy on BJFO of trying to increase HP's sales. The moderators were never instructed to hawk HP products, to avoid criticizing books published by HP, or anything else. When I referred to a book, I did so because I thought my comments would help people find their way through the many blackjack books available.

The only time I can remember that HP's commercial interests were involved was when someone posted something about how to abuse Las Vegas Advisor coupons. Anthony Curtis responded, with some asperity, pointing out how the suggested tactics would make the casinos less likely to provide the coupons, and thus be harmful to the players overall (as well as harmful to HP).

Re: Repost
Posted by DVCellini on 07-Dec-2003 00:39:21 (#5684)

Thank you Seeker! Since my departure from that site I've been accused of everything from bad talking our old haunt to killing Arnold. People don�t understand how easy it is to get an e mail address with any name.
About the site, truth is we never pushed anything and when the vote came around whether to allow Pop Ups and other forms of irritating advertisement we all agreed that it would be a sell out and decided not to do it.
My concerns kicked in when the "fight club" started. The exposure of private e-mails posted on the fight club page made me ill. It turned into the personnel Vendetta Page. You should know this Eliot! People tore into you on that page and when I tried to defend you my posts were busted!
I was the first to finally back out/step down. I know all the reasons for the demise of BJFO but it's not for me to say. To this day I still back AS and I believe he will step up and give his side when things mellow out.

Best

-Cellini

Re: Repost
Posted by Learning to count on 07-Dec-2003 10:35:44 (#5686)

The only real reason a site can fail is by hackers or lack of funding. If the failure of the site is due to inner strife then that is sad. BJFO was by far a excellent medium for card counting. It started with a bang and expanded very fast into all the facets that this type of website could even become: education, legal matters, advance play and strategy, history, comedy/entertainment, friendship as well as honest open descent and debate. They had expert knowledge on how the casino thought, watched and rewarded the gambler and AP alike. What a site...and it was lead by a legend of card counting Arnold Snyder. I'm waiting to see what will happen. Is this the end or is it a reconstruction of a great idea into perfection or is it over. We will wait and see. For now CC.COM is the pick of the week for Anthony Curtis and that makes me proud to be a part of this medium!

Vendetta or Not
Posted by Titaniumman on 07-Dec-2003 12:59:31 (#5687)

The exposure of private e-mails posted on the fight club page made me ill.

As you know, I am the one who posted the emails. Lots of people like to think that Arnold put me up to it. He did not. Arnold did advise & help me, but only at my request, and he never tried to pursuade me to do anything.

The posting of the emails were my idea. I did it out of necessity, and that necessity was even proven in the emails.

A lot of people know me around here, quite a few personally. I am known as a person who stands by his convictions. I did what I felt was right, and I have no regrets.

Re: Vendetta or Not
Posted by DVCellini on 07-Dec-2003 15:56:53 (#5688)

"My concerns kicked in when the "fight club" started. The exposure of private e-mails posted on the fight club page made me ill. It turned into the personnel Vendetta Page. You should know this Eliot! People tore into you on that page and when I tried to defend you my posts were busted!"

T-Man,
With all due respect, I too have a right to express my opinions. The "private" e mails posted and the responses did make me ill! I wasn�t taking sides. This opened up BJFO for the "Battle of the Sites." Arnold did discuss these matters with me prior to and I did voice my concerns as to what the ramifications could be. I even wrote an article about it (The Taking of BJF Online / Pelum 123). Everyone was now game for personal attacks and for no other reason than to hurt each other because of what site they posted on and whose side they claimed to support.
What you did was your business and you had your rights and reasons for what you did. But the fact remains that the Fight Club did turn into a Site vs. Site war.
By the way, I did not mean for my post to read as if it was your post that changed it into a "personal vendetta" page. If that's how you took it, I apologize.

-Cellini

No apology necessary.
Posted by Titaniumman on 07-Dec-2003 16:15:50 (#5690)

I wasn't offended.

And, your point is well taken. You certainly do have the right to express your opinions and feelings. I just felt compelled to state that I still stand by my actions.

It's good to see you posting. I particularly enjoy your humor.

For ME the Unknowing
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 07-Dec-2003 21:10:24 (#5692)

whew! I must have missed these posts. Why would you post someones personal email? You must have a good reason. And Celli, how do you figure it was a war between sites? I thought it was every man for himself, just nuckle dusters over leather gloves? And the site is toast because of that? I thouhg it was just a new direction?

Rob
Posted by DVCellini on 07-Dec-2003 23:06:01 (#5697)

That's what it started out being but then people started to selectively defend people then go back to their site of origin and stir the troops up.
Then I heard (after the fact) that certain people�s posts were getting bumped only because of who they were or who they were defending. I don't know if this was true or not. In all fairness I did hear it more than a few times. I once altered a post because the gentleman was giving up too much of his own personal information. In fact I think it was LTC that pointed it out to me. The gentleman later thanked me/us for covering him.
Too much, too fast, and too far maybe?

Fight Club
Posted by Slowhand on 07-Dec-2003 21:13:08 (#5693)

You know, I never bothered going to the fight club. Consequently I am not aware of all that transpired there. I guess I missed some interesting activity, although it sounds like it was pretty vicious. It is truly a shame that it was bad enough to cause the demise of the site.

Slowhand

Slowhand - Fight Club
Posted by DVCellini on 07-Dec-2003 22:54:50 (#5696)

I wouldn't say the fight club was the cause for the demise of the site but it didn't help. I heard it first handed that most every computer literate surveillance and floor person in the U.S. was monitoring that page, laughing while writing down as much information as the accusers were willing to spit out in anger. Both the sin net and the Griffin alerts were pouring like Niagara Falls. People were being made (or had for that matter) because one person would post "Hey SXXXXXXX, I saw you at the Golden Nugget last night at 8PM playing on table 44, your basic sucks. Give up loser."
How such comments could be considered helpful or useful is a mystery to me. And to think it all went down hill from there. Even Jesus wasn't spared from the wrath of the Fight Club.
I still enjoy a two way friendship with Arnold and always will. There is no bad blood over there between any of the regulars, the posters, moderators, etc. It�s possible that the site was over taxed, over worked, and underpaid. That site took a lot of time from a lot of people just to stay afloat. It was a very fast paced site.

BIA,

-Cellini

Re: Slowhand - Fight Club *LINK* *PIC*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 08-Dec-2003 09:03:51 (#5702)

Celli, as a moderator at

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/blackjackcardcounterscafe/

I have been thru all of this previously, and ended up having to send people that wanted war to other sites, one set up particularly for that, BJ Flame Wars, and when things cooled down, the non-bj board here for spats over religion, politics, and what color Madonnas panties are today. I thought it was wise to create such a place on BJF board too, but never knew that people were exposing other players. I've seen all of that before from people that like to keep certain info and games to themselves. Making $$ can be a very serious business, and people can get nasty. There was an actual death threat posted here if I am not mistaken during one of these spats. It shows you how out of whack a person can get themselves when their blood boils. We are all in shock when we hear Johnny killed Bobby for a $5 bill. Well, that is where things can head.

If the Counter Cops were at BJFOL then they are hear, and everywhere.

Aside from all of the fight club, I figured that Anthony wanted to switch lanes and head out onto the Internet Casino Super Highway, and you ol' boys that like the black greasy dirt found on casino chips under your nails, would not want to be a part of that. He jumped for the brass ring, and is hanging onto it with one pinky finger now. We'll see if he can pull himself into it or slip right off into the safety net. I have found that before you changes lanes, you should signal FIRST, and he didn't bother to do that, and that is why we are all left wondering what the hell happened. There are skid marks all over the road, but damned if we can find any bodies or cars left. Was it the Blackjack RAPTURE?? laugh But you, oh messenger from the grave, speak freely, once again separating yourself from the clique. Thanks for caring. We are more than just a book buying public. More than simple people looking for an edge...

"We are more than conquerors!"

Re: Slowhand - Fight Club
Posted by Slowhand on 08-Dec-2003 20:51:19 (#5713)

Rob,
Thanks for the info. It does help explain what has happened. Hopefully more details will eventually surface.

Slowhand

Re: Slowhand - Fight Club
Posted by Sohrab on 09-Dec-2003 18:28:39 (#5725)

So is this where the gang has come? It was very sad what happened. I feel like friends has let me down. But if fightclubs were exposing each other to surveillance that shows how careful you must be. Did they do this to ruin the site?

Fight club was brutal
Posted by Learning to count on 08-Dec-2003 06:56:28 (#5701)

The arguements were rediculous. Every one criticizing each other for anything and everything. This is what the page was for,I guess, to release wasted life energy. It made me wonder if the fight club posters ever made it to the tables to play? There were threats and postal mutilations. It was verbally bloody. It surprised me because most of them have high IQ's. Yet they were very cruel to each other. It's like I always say with genuise you get a little insanity. I just hope the site comes back up without the fight club.

Fight Club served a function
Posted by Seeker on 08-Dec-2003 18:28:03 (#5710)

As "Learning to count" said, the Fight Club page was a release valve for excess energy. It always reminded me of a verse from "A Simple Song of Freedom," by Bobby Darin:

"Now, no doubt some folks enjoy doin' battle
Like presidents, prime ministers and kings
So, let's all build them shelves
Where they can fight among themselves
And leave the people be who love to sing."

My subjective impression was that the quality of the discussion on the other pages improved after Fight Club was established, because a lot of the garbage went to FC.

I Agree
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 09-Dec-2003 09:48:19 (#5715)

You have to remain professional when you post in the classroom, but can say what needs to be said at recess where there are no teachers to get in the way. And for those who like to sing,

"There is a time and a place for everything under heaven"

Alias
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 08-Dec-2003 19:00:30 (#5711)

Which alias did you use there LTC?

Aliases and masterbation
Posted by Learning to count on 08-Dec-2003 22:21:07 (#5714)

My alias but what else but "Rob MacGarvey". And as far as the excuse of FC being a medium for the release of pent up frustration well a good woman will suffice for that or I guess choking the rooster could help some of the pent up rage of those FC psychotic posters there!

Mac
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 09-Dec-2003 10:12:43 (#5717)

My Scottish cousin! How are yee lad??

Drop your rooster and grab yur wife,
Come on o'er, have the time o yer life
Roll up yer sleeves and get ye drrrink
Call me a bastard, I'll call you a fink

Ya see, that's life, that's the way that it is
The world is a stage, and it's all just show biz
Cuz at the end of the day, me lassies and lads
Ye should be happy, not complacent or sad

If ya went thrrrrough yur day with yur tail tween yur legs
And your ankles are sore from walkin on eggs
Then deep in side yur not really a man
Fur holdin yur tongue, when ya shoulda said somethan'

IMO:
Being politically correct is not superior or inferior to speaking your mind.

HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEH >: ) *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 09-Dec-2003 12:29:04 (#5720)

Backed off !!
Posted by Ace High on 07-Dec-2003 19:00:51 (#5691)

I was in a small club in Carson City. I was just getting into what I thought was a "Groove" apparently so did the dealer, She called the pit boss over and whispered something in his ear, He picked up the phone and in another ten minutes or so, They told me they didn't want my play... I didn't argue, I did ask "why," They gave me no logical response, Just management has decided they do not want your play. They invited me to play any other game besides B.J. but no more B.J. ever in their place..I guess I blew it.. But don't know why? I had a beer in my hand, Wasn't staring at the cards, and even lost count more then once.
I'm working on the Hi-Lo, balanced system.

OH, WELL!!! The life of a Newby ,

Ace High

Was this at the Carson Nugget sweatshop?
Posted by LVBear584 on 07-Dec-2003 22:24:15 (#5694)

The Carson Nuget pit boss watches the games while viewing an angled mirror above the pit, so it isn't obvious that he's watching you.

Assuming this is the place, they back off everyone who bets more than their average $3.00 ploppy and demonstrates any skill at all. Don't take it personally. There are plenty of other games in the Reno/Carson City area.

How long was your session?

Re: Backed off !!
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 07-Dec-2003 22:41:10 (#5695)

How large was your spread?

Hmmmm, I never got cooked there yet. Based on what LVBear said, I can assume my act is pretty good. + I guess I don't stay there very long either.

Hey LVBear: Remember the good ol' days at CVI in Minden with rules to die for? ;-)

Re: Backed off !!
Posted by Ace High on 08-Dec-2003 03:17:36 (#5698)

It was the "Carson Nugget" , The dealers name was "(Deleted)" I didn't notice the pit bosses name, It was in the evening. I guess my time was around 30 minutes. I was only spreading 1 to 5 units, and only when it was very apparent the cards were running rich.I mean very apparent, Another player even commented how there were no tens, and now was the time to increase our bets. They didn't say anything to him, (unless they did after I walked) It was more of a Practice session for me, then a Money making one. But I did something to tip them off????? So I guess I need to just take it as a Schooling session, I just wished I knew what for??And How to utilize it.

Ace High

"Ace High we deleted the names due to your exposing your self" Management.

Re: Backed off !!
Posted by Shaggy18VW on 08-Dec-2003 14:22:40 (#5705)

Did you raise your bets by more than a parlay (eg. "jump your bets"). This will tip most dealers and pit critters off. Be patient with your increases if heat may be an issue. If your playing a shoe game, the count will stay for a while.

Re: Backed off !!
Posted by Ace High on 08-Dec-2003 17:22:12 (#5708)

I'll give a rundown of the period, and maybe some of you caan give me Critique.
Critisizm is also accepted...

When I sat down the "first" thing I did was request cocktails. I bought in for $50.00 and being the first hand out of the shoe I bet 5 units, ($25.00).
I won that hand and pulled back to $5.00, I bet the $5.00 for quite some time just talking and watching the count. It stayed pretty steady the first shoe, but I did loose it a few times. After a couple of shoes, I was starting to keep up pretty well. Then new shoe shuffle and first hand out, I again bet $25.00. I verbaly made the comment that it worked once maybe it'll work again, It didn't, She brought up a B.J.. Again I requested another beer, The dealer wasn't very friendly and the guy next to me made some comment about her, ( I see the name was deleted from my other post, so I won't make that mistake again,,) The guy put a buck up saying maybe this will put you in a "better frame of mind," I played dumb and asked what that was for? He said it was a tip, I asked what a tip was, etc.etc.So I did it also.

The shoe was about 1/3rd in to it and was at +8, I was at 2 units and went to 5 units, That's when the dealer called the pit boss over.

So,What ya'll think..

Ace High

Re: Backed off !!
Posted by Automatic Monkey on 09-Dec-2003 11:42:59 (#5719)

Well that might have been playing a little too dumb, asking what a tip was! Everyone knows what a tip is. But the first time I went to Nevada and heard it referred to as a "toke", I was a little confused. Everywhere outside of Nevada a toke means something very different.

I tip big, real big, probably too big for my own good but I do it only when I am winning, which is the only time I have to worry about heat.

Were you mouthing the count maybe? If you bought in at $50, could be that you were just playing at a low-budget casino where they sweat everything. If you're playing shoe, I think you might be better off at a big time place where any red action is going to be invisible to them. Maybe find a table where someone is playing green or black and they won't notice you at all.

Your last point was a great point
Posted by Victoria on 09-Dec-2003 14:26:36 (#5723)

I agree, the small guy will not be noticed in the bigger places.
From my limited, 5 year, experience, playing green at shoes on the strip, with black chip and purple chip players at your table, tends to get you ignored. Sat next to a guy playing purple my last trip, he was doing well but was not counting. He would take insurance most of the time and when his insurance bet worked twice in a row (neutral counts), you could really see the eyeballing. Better than that, when a new shoe started, this pit critter was moving his lips. I sat there spreading $25-$250, though the max bet only got out there a few times, and felt like I had a free pass. At a table with red chip players, checks play would have been yelled out.
They did not toss the guy though, but I bet they might have if the shoe the pit counted and his bets would have worked out. The shoe was a good one, but since the high rolling ploppy was not getting cards, he kept reducing his bet as the shoe got better. Luck and coincedence can probably get ploppys tossed. If it were my place, I would upgrade the guys room, give him a great dinner and make sure he comes back to play.

I'm confused
Posted by LVBear584 on 09-Dec-2003 13:26:14 (#5721)

You said this happened at the Carson Nugget, which was my original guess. But you said it was in a shoe game. The Carson Nugget has only single deck games, no shoes. ???

What does a "toke" mean outside of Nevada?

One Toke Over The Line
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 09-Dec-2003 15:52:02 (#5724)

Toke: verb - To take a puff from a marihuana (sometimes refered to as "mary jane") cigarette. Usually hand rolled, commonly called a "reefer", or a "joint", chronic use of which can lead to East Fremont Street and being banned from the Western.

He's a Joker, a Smoker, a Midnight Toker! *NM*
Posted by Sonny on 10-Dec-2003 10:39:15 (#5736)

Don�t worry about that dump place in Carson
Posted by Alex on 09-Dec-2003 14:19:27 (#5722)

There are 324 casinos in Nevada with 420 Bj games. In the US there are 1098 casinos with 1129 BJ games and in Canada there are 51 casinos with 66 Bj games.
So we have in the US and Canada about 1149 casinos that offer Bj games. If we want to be conservative and consider that only about 25-30% of them are worth playing with an edge then we have about 287/340 casinos to play in per year and never play twice in the same place. Getting on average $700 per casino will get you over $200,000 per year and you�re only play once/year in any place. We practically will never run out of playing games if we are willing to move/travel around.

My honest opinion is that nowadays the card counters have the best of it. I tend to believe that in today�s market it is very possible to play BJ for living. If you play red chips I think is almost impossible to play professionally for living. You are no winning enough to cover all the expenses. The �green chip� level will take some real hard work to manage a decent income per year. If you can handle the �black chips� action then the life is sweet and easy.

AlexD30

Re: Backed off !!
Posted by Learning to count on 09-Dec-2003 19:56:41 (#5726)

The shoe was about 1/3rd in to it and was at +8, I was at 2 units and went to 5 units, That's when the dealer called the pit boss over.

So,What ya'll think..

Ace High
What I think is that is that there is something fishy with your story. If anyone knows The bear knows. SO whats UP???????

Re: Backed off !!
Posted by Stealth Bomber on 09-Dec-2003 23:28:40 (#5727)

Ace High, you only over-did one thing that I found, which comes from this statement:

I played dumb and asked what that was for? He said it was a tip, I asked what a tip was, etc.etc.So I did it also.

This statement and action works only if its real and you're one of the newest and worst players to have ever played the game. I think you over cooked it right there. Then you upped your bet when the PC apparently thought the shoe was hot + your playing strategy skill was not consistant with someone who is totally new to the idea of playing a tip for the D (an absolute beginner). They new something was fishy and they didn't want to take any chances on you being an AP.

So what else did you say with regard to your statement of etc. etc.?

Stealth

Coups
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 08-Dec-2003 14:49:23 (#5706)

I realize this is probably a casino dependent thing. But, in general, does anyone ever have any trouble passing expired matchplays in Vegas? I had a couple last trip that were about 8 mos past their exp. date and had no problems using them.

I am sitting on a bunch right now that are all going to expire on Jan 1, and I won't be in LV again until around March. I don't want to get rid of them because I feel I need to try to use them next time out.(No Inquiries Please!).

Thanks
-Felix

Re: Coups
Posted by wong out on 08-Dec-2003 16:58:22 (#5707)

Felix:

If your not cheating then you are not trying. I would use them and be sure to follow the 1st law of casino advantage play: If you get an answer you dont like ask another pit; in general casinos are not well managed and the floor stiffs respond to ?'s based on the way they were chewed out 15 yrs and six jobs ago.

wong out

Re: Coups
Posted by Ace High on 08-Dec-2003 17:28:27 (#5709)

I guess this probably a stupid question, But,,, Do the FLoor "Stiffs" read this stuff???

Ace High

Only the ones smart enough to turn on a computer.
Posted by SammyBoy on 09-Dec-2003 09:51:48 (#5716)

So I would say most (90%) do not. But I would also guess that most casinos are represented here, as in their management, surveilance, some loyal dealers wanting to impress someone.

Re: Coups
Posted by revereman on 09-Dec-2003 11:10:20 (#5718)

The pits In AC sure read those coupons. On the other hand, there's nothing to lose trying to use the coupons, even in different pits. Just don't try to ask the same pit crew more than once.

Re: Coups
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 08-Dec-2003 20:27:15 (#5712)

Yup, For sure!

I didn't say I wasn't going to try. I just was wondering what I may run into.

Count Teams?
Posted by Dre on 10-Dec-2003 06:58:55 (#5728)

Hey everyone,

I am new to counting and am admitting to having read zero books on the topic (but Im going to be picking up a few and studying them religiously over the holiday). I am also only 21 so please excuse any ignorance i may exude in this post.

If I get a team of 3 (including myself): 1 guy does a hi-lo count, another guy does shuffle tracking, and a third guy does this count (for determinig when to take insurance)(http://www.blackjackmagazine.com/ManageArticle.asp?C=160&A=7), would we not have a nice advantage and a good opportunity at winning some nice cash over our break (we're all still in college)? Of course this is assuming that we could communicate with each other without getting guff from pitbulls...but having read an earlier post someone said that AC doesnt care about/doesnt watch red chip bettors, so my confidence level is somewhat raised. I got the idea from that book "bringing down the house" about those MIT students. anyway i wanted to know if this is a ludicrous dream or an untapped reality.

I tried to read though all the posts so as not to repeat anything. I appreciate all of your expertise and look forward to what you all have to say on this topic of having teams.

-Dre

Re: Count Teams?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 10-Dec-2003 09:09:47 (#5731)

Hey Dr. Dre, whatup? Your plan will work but will not give you the edge MIT has. Your Jr. Mafia is all sitting at the same table which limits you. MIT, Hyland, Uston all have many tables covered. Then you need to carry a heavy bankroll from table to table, not sit and wait for it to show up at one table. With the count only getting into the Benjie zone x% of the time, you have to have many tables covered with ya playaz, then drop the bomb on them when day hot.

Now, I can offer you and your two team mates a shot at some good cash with my online team. You roll your bank through a group of casinos we play at and pick up all the bonus money, and I split the profits from the money the casino offers me to bring new players in. You get to double dip. Once you pull that off I can get you into the Internet Blackjack Mafia (IBM) where we are making even bigger profits from....well, playing. The IBM is bigger than the MIT, or the Hyland team is, and we have greater profit potential. Get your basic strategy down, and a NETeller account, and give me a shout if you are interested.

robmcgarvey@rogers.com

For some reason this sounds like an ad????
Posted by Learning to count on 10-Dec-2003 09:26:31 (#5733)

McGarvey does make money...for himself at least. Beware kid beware! Kid you need read some more and learn to count. Give your self some time in the pits and get some experience. If you can get get two close associates to learn along with you and start play with you, you will develop a team environment. Istarted with my two cousins Panthercounter and chicago slim and we have a ncie thing going. After you become good then start reading about team play and its structure:finance, count strategy, play strategy, casino comportment, team attack strategies etc. etc.. As far as Rob goes well thats a whole other world in cyber land.

What's This?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 10-Dec-2003 12:18:43 (#5742)

"McGarvey does make money...for himself at least. Beware kid beware!"

I really don't know what your problem with me is LTC, but it is becoming obvious to me that you have one. I would like to get that out in the open, possibly in the non BJ area, or by private email, because I think your pot shots are uncalled for. We all make $$ on my team. You make it look like I stiffed you or something. I'll spell it out for everyone using ONE casino.

I send Dre's Team to one casino. I have several more available, but let's just go slow for now. We all make $300. All for knowing basic strategy.

"Kid you need read some more and learn to count. Give your self some time in the pits and get some experience. If you can get get two close associates to learn along with you and start play with you, you will develop a team environment. Istarted with my two cousins Panthercounter and chicago slim and we have a ncie thing going. After you become good then start reading about team play and its structure:finance, count strategy, play strategy, casino comportment, team attack strategies etc. etc.."

All good advice. Tell him what your team EV and SD is.

"As far as Rob goes well thats a whole other world in cyber land."

You are right. The biggest advantage is available online. The smallest standard deviation is available online. I am presenting to Dre's team an opportunity of a life time. No counting, gas expenses, etc, and you try to turn him away from that. Why? Because you hate to see me make money so much that you will throw a wrench into the gears? I'd really like to know. All I can say to you LTC is that if by chance you have convinced Dre or anyone else for that matter to avoid playing on my team, you have cost them, and myself, a lot of money. All online casino money. The "enemies" money. I think your selfish interests are involved here LTC. If you are running a similar team, I can understand that, and you should say that you are. If not, then you disappoint me.

We are actually going to step into something with an advantage of a minimum of 12.5% to a maximum of 65%, with an average of 35% for the most part, with an unlimited potential. By chosing different forks in the road, we can discover forks that no one has ever seen before, and learn how to get the most out of them.........together.

Re: What's This?
Posted by The Mayor on 10-Dec-2003 12:39:14 (#5743)

"The biggest advantage is available online. The smallest standard deviation is available online"

This is false. Coupon play is obviously better on both counts. There are other much better alternatives to online play. However, if you want a day job as an advantage player from home, then nothing beats online advantage play for about $50/hour low SD income.

--Mayor

Re: What's This? *PIC*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 10-Dec-2003 12:59:53 (#5744)

I don't think so from where I sit. If my team has an advantage of over 25% (not BJ) and we can play $1 hands where your table min for your coupons is what, $25? I should be correct. I don't know the perameters of your coupon, but do know that the team does not have swings like you have in your onland blackjack career Mayor. See below:

Is that record with or without coupons Elly? Tell the truth now! smile You should post a time frame and $ amounts or unit amounts on this. Use different colors for coupie play, and non coupie play.

Re: What's This?
Posted by The Mayor on 10-Dec-2003 13:49:23 (#5746)

Rob, you are not getting a 25% edge.

If a person deposits $100 to get a $100 match, then has to push the money through the system 10x to withdraw, that's $2000 worth of action. You lose .5% because of the house edge, that's $10, so you make $90 on your $2000 worth of action. To me that sounds like a 4.5% edge. I know this varies, but you will rarely see an edge above 5% with online play.

A coupon player playing match play on Roulette with a $10 match, who bets on a color (even money) has a 18/38 chance of winning $20 and a 20/38 chance of losing $10, for an EV of

(18/38)*20 + (20/38)(-10) = 9.47 - 5.26 = $4.21 on the $10 bet. That's 42% Rob.

--Mayor

Re: What's This? *PIC*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 10-Dec-2003 14:37:24 (#5747)

"Rob, you are not getting a 25% edge. If a person deposits $100 to get a $100 match, then has to push the money through the system 10x to withdraw, that's $2000 worth of action. You lose .5% because of the house edge, that's $10, so you make $90 on your $2000 worth of action. To me that sounds like a 4.5% edge. I know this varies, but you will rarely see an edge above 5% with online play."

Right, with a 90% ROI. You are talking blackjack, and I am talking sports and sports referral fees, something I am sure you do not have a grasp of yet. There are some great opptys online, like a sticky BJ match play where you can lose $100 or win $300, $450 with a BJ. 4x action. Tell me what advantage that gives you. When you lose they come at you with something better, so losing is not always losing.

"A coupon player playing match play on Roulette with a $10 match, who bets on a color (even money) has a 18/38 chance of winning $20 and a 20/38 chance of losing $10, for an EV of

(18/38)*20 + (20/38)(-10) = 9.47 - 5.26 = $4.21 on the $10 bet. That's 42% Rob.

Yes, I understand this. 42% on one hand. Can you play this coupon all day long? Usually there is one per coupie book. After qualifying for a $500 match play at certain online casinos, playing roulie is the way to convert it to cash, better than the 50% from BJ playing hand after hand after hand. Spread your 500 on all numbers and spin to win 35/37 (Euro) back.

Bottom line: online is better than onland IMO, and easier to get to, espec for someone facing AC rules like Dre is. You live close to LV, which includes a very small percentage of people on this planet.

NOW: back to that chart of yours Mayor. Coupie or no coupie? Units or dollars? A chart with no reference marks is not much of a chart.

Re: What's This?
Posted by The Mayor on 10-Dec-2003 18:38:55 (#5753)

>NOW: back to that chart of yours Mayor. Coupie or no coupie?

Straight blackjack -- no coupons.

>Units or dollars?

Yes.

> A chart with no reference marks is not much of a chart.

True, but it all you're going to get.

Each mark denote's one full day of play at the BJ tables. About 2 years worth of my play are there -- I have not played a full day of BJ in about a year.

--Mayor

Webbles
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-Dec-2003 10:45:58 (#5762)

>NOW: back to that chart of yours Mayor. Coupie or no coupie?
Straight blackjack -- no coupons.

Good for you! Why did you keep your coupie play separate from this chart?

>Units or dollars?
Yes.

Okay.......

> A chart with no reference marks is not much of a chart.
True, but it all you're going to get.

Exactly as I thought. Just keeping you...........honest?

Each mark denote's one full day of play at the BJ tables. About 2 years worth of my play are there -- I have not played a full day of BJ in about a year.

98 full 8 hour days? So are you saying when you play an hour you add that to 7 more, then make a mark? Are you saying that you haven't keep this chart up to date over the last year, or that you only mark full days?

Now imagine a line that goes almost str8 up. Actually at around 81 degrees. No $ figures, no % of total bankroll, no time frames, just a nice smoooooooth line that stretches into the sky...........

Rob you of all people should not take my ....
Posted by Learning to count on 10-Dec-2003 14:50:04 (#5748)

ribbing so personally. I'm sorry if I touched a nerve. You make money for everyone you deal with! I will calm down from now on. I enjoy your posts and I read your and have learned from your wisdom. I extend the hand of friendship to you.

U were Joking? *PIC*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 10-Dec-2003 15:06:47 (#5749)

"McGarvey does make money...for himself at least. Beware kid beware!"
"As far as Rob goes well thats a whole other world in cyber land."

Hey, I can take a joke and forgive you, but these comments are very to the point. I can hack not making a few hundred because you may have scared this guy off, but what about him? About his buddies? A few hundred dollars can make a world of difference to these guys in school. Please think about what you are going to type before you type it. Your "jokes" towards me can hurt a lot of people.

Re: U were Joking?
Posted by Learning to count on 10-Dec-2003 16:28:33 (#5751)

Hey sorry but you were advertising! And to do that to a virgin is just not right. Tell the kid to meet some where else and explain your strategies. So if ya cant accept my apology well the all I can say is that I misjudged the affect of my ribbing. I will not bother you any more.

Peace in the Valley
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-Dec-2003 11:20:24 (#5764)

"Hey sorry but you were advertising! And to do that to a virgin is just not right."

I answered his questions and gave him another option to make solid money. I would think that anyone would do that if they had the opportunities I have. I have players on my team that invite their family members to join them doing what we do. Treating this guy like family is not like raping a virgin with a poster panel sign.

"Tell the kid to meet some where else and explain your strategies."

I did! Go read the message, my email address is right there.

"So if ya cant accept my apology well the all I can say is that I misjudged the affect of my ribbing. I will not bother you any more."

I forgave you yesterday, but I did want you to see what kind of damage you were doing to others, including yourself, and that is why I posted what I did. Don't say you won't bother me. I value your friendship and your input. And please, no more jumping from the top rope swinging a metal chair! ;>

Re: Count Teams?
Posted by The Mayor on 10-Dec-2003 11:05:52 (#5737)

First of all, don't set foot in a casino until you have read a decent book (or two).

Then take it slowly, read a lot, and use your play and casino experience in tandem with your study to improve all aspects of your play. You must get a lot of experience with the counts or betting systems you want to use before considering a team.

As far as your idea, hi-lo and shuffle-tracking do not work well together, and you should not even consider it. The shuffle-tracker may cut the rich slug to the top, so the best betting opportunities are happening in severely negative counts, the hi-lo player is making min bets, the tracker is very happy.

The insurance side count works well for the hi-lo player, but the shuffle-tracker will have an entirely different way of playing insurance.

You're mixing ideas -- danger danger danger.

--Mayor

Re: Count Teams?
Posted by ChumashGaucho on 13-Dec-2003 16:15:51 (#5783)

I meant to ask you this over the Hold'em table Mayor, but I guess you had an incident. Sorry about that.

Do you think a team could operate, in a certain Central Coast indian casino, repeatedly, if they are already known by Casino staff as regular customers?

Not this semester, at least.
Posted by Sonny on 10-Dec-2003 11:06:45 (#5738)

> If I get a team of 3 (including myself): 1 guy does a hi-lo count, another
> guy does shuffle tracking, and a third guy does this count (for determinig
> when to take insurance), would we not have a nice advantage and a good
> opportunity at winning some nice cash over our break (we're all still in
> college)?

First of all, Like Rob said, you will all be playing at the same table. You would be making more money if you all used hi-lo and played at different tables. Also, you would all be raising and lowering your bets in unison. This will be very obvious to anyone watching. Using the "Big Player" approach (read up on Ken Uston for more info on this. He covers it MUCH better than the MIT team) would be a better plan, if you can pull it off.

Secondly, are you planning to do this on Xmas break? If so, then your plan is going to fail. Here's why:

> I am new to counting and am admitting to having read zero books on the topic
> (but Im going to be picking up a few and studying them religiously over the
> holiday).

I'm guessing that your buddies are also new to the game. The problem is this: you CANNOT learn to count cards in a few weeks and expect to play well on a team. It could take several months before you are comfortable counting cards in a casino environment. On top of that you are trying to learn signals and team plays as well. If you are all newbies you will be struggling to keep the count during your first few sessions, and you will not be fast enough to give signals or read signals from other players. You will probably misread a few signals as well. All these things will corrupt your edge. I won't even mention the difficulties of trying to learn shuffle-tracking.

Your best plan is to each learn the hi-lo. Practice together, play together, and take a few practice trips to a casino before you start any dreams of team play. You may find that your buddies aren't willing to put in the effort to learn to count properly. This is important to know BEFORE you start a team. If you want to start a team, do it AFTER you are all competent counters. Until then, just read everything you can and practice, practice, practice. Once you and your buddies can all play alone in a casino you can start to work on your team tactics...maybe next semester.

-Sonny-

P.S.- I've been playing for three years now, and I'm still perfecting my solo playing. I't doesn't happen overnight.

Re: Not this semester, at least.
Posted by Dre on 10-Dec-2003 13:34:47 (#5745)

Hey,
Thanks for the input guys, i appreciate it.

Sonny, nah i wasnt going to try it over break. i know it takes months of practice i think i read somewhere you should practice for a bare minimum of 1 hour a day for 3 months. i want to do this starting late july (im trying to be realistic)

as far as not stepping in a casino before reading a book goes, i would completely agree...but i definitely have gone about 6 or 7 times since turning 21 (late may of this year). i only lost once, just playing basic strategy. i was pretty lucky. i know it was stupid to do but hey, we all gotta start somewhere.

thanks again for your input and ill talk to my buddies about the bonus sign up gig, though we might be too amateur for you and your team rob!

take it easy,
Dre

Kings Shuffle machines
Posted by theshuffleking on 10-Dec-2003 07:17:41 (#5729)

Who has experience with shuffle machines that create a huge advantage or disadv

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