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Threads 691 to 720

Intro:I'm new to this board...
Posted by JonathanR on 02-Oct-2003 07:47:25 (#4840)

Hello. Never been on this web site before. I was as heavy blackjack player as you could be in New England, where the nearest games are 8 decks with a three deck cutoff and non-random shuffle. Because I found the games too tough to beat, and the trips to Nevada too infrequent, I've been focusing on poker for the last year or two, but I'm back with a question.

Has anyone else here read "Bringing Down The House"? It seems to be doing tremendous business in the bookstores, and it was a fascinating read, but as a book trained counter reading Uston and Snyder (and using the Zen count with moderate success), I was astonished. They seemed to have no regard for the game they played, little concern for the number of decks, less concern for penetration, no concept that their action would draw heat, and no concern that their longevity would be compromised if they didn't lay off when the heat was on.

I live in Boston, I have friends at MIT, and I might even be able to get in touch with one or two of these guys through connections. I've never done team play, and I'd love to spend some more time focusing on serious, beatable BJ, but I can't help but wonder whether this book should scare me away from thinking about that, or whether my late 1980's-early 1990's knowledge is out of date and the way this MIT team was purportedly doing business is actually workable. I'd love some feedback.

My take on MIT *LINK*
Posted by Kevin Blackwood on 02-Oct-2003 13:52:14 (#4844)

You would be making a big mistake changing your BJ career to emulate the MIT book. While their team was extremely successful, I feel the book is highly embellished and does not present a very authentic portrayal of card counting.

You should stick to the books you mentioned as people like Wong, Uston, Schlesinger or the Mayor here will give you the unvarnished truth.

BTW, this is also my first post here!

Re: My take on MIT
Posted by wong out on 02-Oct-2003 19:10:55 (#4846)

Welcome back to the game! Two words of advice; dont play 3 decks cut out of 8 and the non-random shuffle bias theories has been pretty thoroughly debunked over the past 10 years. Thats not to say that you can't find exploitable shufflees out there....

wong out

Re: My take on MIT
Posted by JonathanR on 02-Oct-2003 22:26:39 (#4847)

I know that the games offered in the Ct. Indian reservations are not particularly beatable...that's the main reason that I switched to poker. They have excellent poker rooms that are comfortable and well protected. Now I count to keep myself occupied when I have a deck of cards in my hand, as well as more intensely before a Vegas trip...but those are only happening every other year or so(job, girlfriend, other hobbies, you know the drill). As a result, I feel like my blackjack knowledge is rather antiquated. I haven't read a new book on the subject that wasn't a story in years...no new counts after the first Zen count, no practical tips on shuffle tracking or other new techniques. Any comprehensive suggestions on how to re-connect with the game? I'd be happy to hear from you, the Mayor, or any of the other working counters on this board for advice.

Re: My take on MIT
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 03-Oct-2003 09:29:26 (#4850)

Zen is still a great count and there really isn't anything new under the sun at a brick and mortar joint. vs 8 decks, wong in at +2TC and bet .5% BR, +3 1% +4 1.5% etc. You know the drill. Get your indices down. You must have the BR to keep you in the game. If you are playing poker, then you are used to putting out big bets, unless you are playing 2/4 Hold'em. You could learn to track, something I got used to when using Hi Opt II's Ace density BE plays.

The big news is online, but that story is sounding like a broken record coming from me. Actually, the broken record IS the old way of playing BJ. Online it is all MP3, DVD, RNG now. Some people like the Old Testament Blackjack play. I prefer doing it the New Testament way, where you are guaranteed to win. There is life after the death of Brick and Mortar blackjack!! I go play OT blackjack when my wife gets a free room for playing nickel slots at our local Indian casino, but that's about it. She'll lose $40 at the most, we get a free room, sauna, pool, steam room for the entire family, a free meal coupie, and then I go table travelin' looking for pos EV plays for a few hours just to stay sharp.

Re: My take on MIT
Posted by wong out on 06-Oct-2003 21:52:42 (#4864)

Jonathon:

What are your goals wrt to 21? How much time/yr do you want to play? What levels do you plan to play at? The Zen Count is fine. How to re-connect with the game is a tough ? to answer without some basic idea of where you would like to take your game.'

wong out

Re: My take on MIT
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 03-Oct-2003 09:16:00 (#4849)

Nice to see you here Kev.

Rob

Kevin - I Enjoyed Your Book
Posted by SammyBoy on 07-Oct-2003 15:32:43 (#4866)

Thanks.

Re: Kevin - I Enjoyed Your Book *LINK*
Posted by Kevin Blackwood on 07-Oct-2003 15:48:54 (#4867)

Thank you Sammy. Always great to hear from people who enjoyed the story. Appreciate you taking the time to post.

L.V. trip and Question
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 02-Oct-2003 12:13:39 (#4843)

Just got back from L.V. Pretty crumby trip in general. I haven't tallied up my scribble-slips yet, but it was roughly a 100+ unit loss across about 15 hours of play (very small units, thankfully!). I had some runs that were just unbelievably awful. I'm still ahead for the year though, thanks to one stellar trip to one of the Midwest stores a couple months back.

This trip was a terrific learning experience though. I spent a lot of time just scouting and evaluating the games. Also, started practicing an act. Probably completely useless for my low red-chip play, but something I want in my arsenal. I'm sure it was effective from the feedback I was getting from the dealers. I had a great time with this.

Now...

Is there some resource for locating locals casinos, low minimum break in joints etc. that have good games that are not well advertised? It's true The Western isn't in my Fodors guide, but it is an easy find. Are there more places like this in the cracks of the city? I don't subscribe to a pay resource yet, do they list places like these or just the strip/off-strip/Downtown casinos? Do the people who discover these places typically keep them to themselves?

thanks
-Felix

Re: L.V. trip and Question
Posted by wong out on 02-Oct-2003 19:07:58 (#4845)

Try Wongs BJ Condition Reports. You can buy for about 10 bucks/area off of his website. They are pretty good for recent game info at a fair price.

wong out - dont worry about the 100 unit loss. Happens all the time; it even more fun when you dorp 100 units in 1 shoe.

Re: L.V. trip and Question
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 03-Oct-2003 09:11:00 (#4848)

Paid subs will give you the games after they are already known by the pro's, who generally keep them to themselves. They may tell you about a 60% pene game but forget to let you in on the 75% pene one they are working over. Take a read thru Barry Meadows Blackjack Autumn. He finds games in NV that make we want to buy a plane just to play single deck in the desert.

Another thought
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 03-Oct-2003 13:14:41 (#4851)

Thanks W.O. And R.M.

Not at all worried about the loss. I'm still doing well for the year. And I had an a great streak at the end of last year. I guess it really wasn't such a crumby trip.

Just another thought:

Maybe I could find a comprehensive list of all of the casinos in the County or something and use it to scout out the good ones. I'll be back in January for a slightly longer stay. I would be happy to put a day or so aside to do this.
What would really be valuable is a listing of licences. I'll check out the chamber of commerce.

thnks

American Casino Guide nt *NM*
Posted by stickyshoe on 04-Oct-2003 12:36:46 (#4853)

Re: Another thought
Posted by stickyshoe on 04-Oct-2003 12:44:37 (#4854)

Have you tried "The American Casino Guide" ? It lists every casino in the country.

Re: Another thought
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 06-Oct-2003 07:37:20 (#4862)

I had a copy of this awhile back, lent it out, and haven't seen it since. I will probably re-buy it. I think it had some useable coupons, too.

However, I really only remember mainstream casinos listed. I have heard talk of Blackjack games in places like Nevada truckstops or very small casinos that I am sure are off the radar of the American Casino Guide.

Thanks for the input, though. And thanks you all for responses.
-Felix

Re: L.V. trip and Question
Posted by tim kieper on 20-Oct-2003 19:03:46 (#4905)

I got booted from "The Western" for raising my bet from $5 to $10.

Be advised !

Re: L.V. trip and Question
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 22-Oct-2003 23:57:55 (#4959)

Warning understood.
I've heard how much they like to kick out counters. Still... It would be nice to find more games like that.

OK, where is it Mayor?
Posted by toddler on 03-Oct-2003 18:15:35 (#4852)

OK, I waited long enough, Mayor. Where's the long-awaited sequel to 'The Golden Gate"?

toddler

The ANSWER you seek.....
Posted by phantom007 on 04-Oct-2003 22:44:49 (#4855)

is on the Non-BJ Message Board, several "posts" down from the top. I will presume to Agree! Certainly GG-I was very-well written, entertaining, and for the serious BJ player, hit HOME hard!

Still wonder what happened to his best friend???...or for the rest of the trip, for that matter???

I too hope for GGII!

Hell, I will buy a copy or two. Certainly should sell better than Cellini's book....likely will be a much better buy as well.

phantom007.

The current status (and an excerpt)
Posted by The Mayor on 05-Oct-2003 10:02:33 (#4857)

I was contacted by a very nice young man, with some connections to Hollywood, and certainly a far better writer than I. We had a few conversations about GG, and decided to expand and re-write the entire thing, with some hope of making it an actual thing. Because of this, the GG is going to get split into several chapters of a much longer work, with it being somewhere in the middle. We had about 12 chapters in all, and I have written chapters 1, 3 of that new work (with GG being chapters 4 and 5). We gave ourselves a timeline of 2 years for this revision.

Here is an excerpt from an early version of Chapter 1 of the new GG...

=========================================================================

Chapter 1

I was in the mathematics library with four candidates, proctoring the Ph.D. examination in algebra � my area. It was early summer after my first complete year as an assistant professor of mathematics.. We were about three hours into the day-long examination period. A few years earlier I was on the other side, taking exams just like these at one of the top universities in the country. Now I was the proctor, the professor, the enforcer of honesty and integrity: the front line. I was determined to do the job to the best of my ability.

My first year went well: I participated in seminars, produced new and interesting research, was recognized as an outstanding teacher, and was starting to fit into the mold of a successful young mathematician. My wife and children loved the small town life, especially our sudden elevation from the poverty of graduate school to the relative luxury my position allowed. Bitter cold January nights and balmy August afternoons, a quiet and peaceful town � whiffle ball and cat fishing.

The great news was that I had a mathematical mentor. Winston Addams was the senior faculty member in the department in my area. He handpicked me for the position because of his respect for my Ph.D. advisor and the similarity of our research interests. He then quickly convinced the other faculty that I was the best candidate and shortly thereafter I was offered the position. In the months that followed my arrival, I went to Addams�s house many times to discuss my research with him; his wife would serve us tea in the study as we wrote out equations and formulas in a rush to discover the next theorem.

It was a very exciting time. Life was good.

One of the students in the library, Cherif, had invited me and several other algebra professors to his house just a few evenings earlier. He served us a feast of lamb shank, hummus, and other Middle Eastern delights. He spoke about life back in Egypt and how much he loved algebra.

�This is what I want to do, and you will be one of the people I rely on in my research. You are a very honorable professor and I am expressing my gratitude to you now for whatever you do for me in the future. In my country we consider it a great honor to attend a university in America and we must express our appreciation.�

We stayed late as Cherif shared stories of life in Egypt � the mix of wealth and poverty, the incredible and ancient culture, and the country�s desire to become westernized � to be known as a world leader in scientific research and technology. Cherif�s family was wealthy � they owned land outside of Alexandria, along the Nile delta � a few precious fertile acres in a wasteland of scorched earth. Now it was time to build a modern Egypt, and an American education was the key.

Back in the library, I noticed that Cherif had his hand raised. I went over to him. He said,

�Question 4, I think it�s worded wrong. It should have this other condition in order to work.�

I went away and worked out the solution in detail. The question was just fine as it was stated. I told Cherif there was no problem. Ten minutes later he raised his hand again:

�Are you sure it�s not wrong? It should have this other condition in order to work.�

I asked him why he thought it was wrong.

�Last night I was over at Professor Addams� house and he went over how to do all these questions. We spent hours together. When Professor Addams told me how to do this problem, it had this other condition.�

And then I said the words that changed my life.

�Goddam cheat!�

shit
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 21-Oct-2003 14:19:21 (#4916)

when I saw GG I thought you were writting with Gambling Geek! Thank God as I read up the postings......

Bass Boat, Sex, and Don's Domain.
Posted by phantom007 on 04-Oct-2003 23:28:52 (#4856)

I am fortunate to live on a large lake in the midwest...lakefront house, dockslip, quiet, peace, eagles perch on our upper deck, and deer aplenty...often on the grill (not the BBQ grill...the grill of my truck!).

A number of years ago, I got a Bass Boat, $8k model...35hp, depth finder, fish finder, live well, etc. I used it most every "free" day for the first year, then about monthly the 2nd, twice in total the 3rd year, then about a year later, when I went to use it again, it would not start...I guess I should have read that little book that came with it!

Anyhow, happily sold said boat for $4K...1/2 of my initial investment...and was happy to get it!

And along the same thread, about 20+ years ago I got married...sex daily (or more) for the first year or so, then 2-3x/week, then..........ANY OFFERS!?

AND DON's DOMAIN...I just came up for yearly renewal, and DID NOT. I chose to cancel rge.21, largely as indicated above...certainly enjoyed this site, and lot's of good info. there, but it just seemed tedious and repetitive, since I attend here, and HAVE continued bj21/CBJN subscription. I still occasionally check-out CCCafe and that "bjinfo" site that Mr. Snyder is involved in...just find them hard to follow.

NO, I do not know it all, just trying to limit my "studies".

CURIOUS to read others' input on both FREE and PAY PER VIEW BJ sites?

phantom007.

What a curious post
Posted by The Mayor on 05-Oct-2003 10:13:24 (#4858)

From Fishing to Sex to Blackjack in one short post, great post.

The pay sites do not offer value for me. I was a member of Snyders, Don's Domain and GC on BJ21 -- now I just pay for Snyder's site and no others. The value in such a subscription is:

1)the inside information that site provides for the money

2)the social climate and friends you meet who are also paying - e.g. the annual GC party.

3)the sages who mainly want to give their advice on the pay pages.

For 1), I find that a subscription to BJ Forum is all I need. Finding the good games has always been legwork and a network of friends, and I have never found the printed word worthwhile. As for the discussion topics and their value, I have found that I can post the same questions to free pages as pay pages, and they are just as eagerly answered.

For 2), A subscription will get you in the door, but after you have created a few long term relationships with players, things develop in the community on their own, and you don't need

For 3), As for the idea of paying for pundantry -- well, Las Vegas has a bunch of pundants that hang out at Ceasar's after around 11:30PM, and their "advice" is much more pleasant to receive. I have found some of these blackjack pundants to be nothing short of rude and unpleasant people, and I cannot imagine paying to be in their company.

--Mayor

Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#4859)

Re: Dear Mayor
Posted by The Mayor on 05-Oct-2003 17:44:34 (#4860)

>So, where can we find informations about the games mentionned in the quizz ?

The best source is the now out-of-print "Beyond Counting" by James Grosjean. You might try and get a copy from www.advantageplayer.com, which is where Grosjean hangs out.

Other than that, I have to ask you to use your creative imagination -- and the best way to develop that is to hang out a lot in casinos thinking "what if..." After you get the idea, you have to do the work to see if it is a valid technique to beat a game. This is an essential part before you ever play your method in a casino.

As you might imagine, I don't want to give anything away here that casinos who lurk could use to protect their games (e.g. MGM visited here 2 days ago and the Stratosphere is a regular visitor, among others). However it is quite straightfoward to see how one can beat every game listed (carrying out the methods is not always easy).

--Mayor

gregorian strategy??
Posted by drew on 06-Oct-2003 08:49:59 (#4863)

i was freeloading all the blackjack books at barnes and noble as i often do... and i ran across a new one that touts a new strategy to replace the old basic strategy in shoe games. most of the book was rehashing what all blackjack books say, but page 24 had the new strategy chart? some of what the author says seems to make logical sense... any one know if this is a scam, or what? is there anything to this?

Re: gregorian strategy??
Posted by Forgotten Password on 07-Oct-2003 11:37:28 (#4865)

What's the name of the book?
What's the name of the author?
I'm assuming "gregorian strategy" is the name of the strategy he's using?

Re: gregorian strategy??
Posted by drew on 08-Oct-2003 07:54:13 (#4871)

sorry. i think the name is something like "gregorian strategy for multiple deck blackjack".. and the author is gregory mannarino.

Not Worth...
Posted by Forgotten Password on 19-Oct-2003 03:27:23 (#4899)

Not worth the paper it was printed on...

Recently, I went to the local Barnes & Nobles and saw this book. The first thing I noticed was the author said it is correct to hit a hard 12 on ANY dealer up card because there's a 53% chance you will get a stiff (in a multi-deck game). You don't question basic strategy and BS tells you to stand vs. 4-6(i'm sure he didn't consider that even if you get a stiff, what are the chances the dealer will beat you?). Anyway, that was enough to turn me off to the book. Since I didn't have much time to amuse myself with his rantings, I can't tell you much more... but if this is the kind of advice he's giving, he really has a lot to learn about BJ.

Please let me explain.
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 08-Oct-2003 23:24:31 (#4878)

I looked at his site. He has a system for slots and craps, too.

"It is not some marketing gimmick.
Please let me explain." -->(boatloads of crap follow).

He "Guarantees" you will win %80 of the time.

%80 of the time is 19.2 hours per day. If you can't play that much, he will probably expect you to pay for the book.

-Felix

Re: Please let me explain.
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 21-Oct-2003 14:13:56 (#4915)

and some of the best selling BJ books are total crap

#1 KO
#2 Beat the Dealer

can't remember them all in order but in the top ten there has to be 3 or 4 hacks in there.

Rob

Re: Please let me explain.
Posted by CanKen on 21-Oct-2003 18:22:12 (#4921)

Rob: Please give some explanation for why you say KO is "total crap".
If it really is, then I'm in deep s--t!:)

Re: Please let me explain.
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 21-Oct-2003 20:49:03 (#4923)

You read me wrong. Both the first two books are fine counting books. Out of the top ten there are some questionable books. KO is a single level unbalanced count which some players prefer. It is the best selling BJ book right now.

Re: Please let me explain.
Posted by CanKen on 22-Oct-2003 12:53:37 (#4939)

Glad to hear that it was a misunderstanding. I've been using KO since I started 3-4 years ago, and I like the combination of simplicity, power, and expandability. In my opinion the book is clear and well written, although there appear to be a few typos/misprints in my '98 edition. Is there a newer one?

Re: Please let me explain.
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 23-Oct-2003 00:16:24 (#4960)

Is "Beat the Dealer" still selling? or do you mean it is #2 of all time? My copy is from 1966. I didn't think they still printed it.

Posted by on 31-Dec-1969 18:00:00 (#4868)

Re: Bringing down the EGOS
Posted by Sonny on 08-Oct-2003 11:20:12 (#4872)

As much as we all hate bothersome ploppies, we must accept the fact that they are the mollusks that the casinos feed on. They are the ONLY reason that casinos continue to offer blackjack to the public. We must coexist with them if we expect to survive.

The only thing better than a casino full of ploppies (and happy bosses) is a casino full of wannabe counters who got all "jazzed-up" from watching some hollywood story about how they can win millions. The majority of them will study the Hi-Low system for a weekend then hit the road to Vegas. They will be giving their money away faster than the ploppies because of the bigger bet spread (and bigger egos), as well as taking the heat off of us real advantage players. It will be easier than ever for us to blend in with the crowd when the crowd is trying to look like us. The ploppies will be trying to look like us for a change!

The few players that are serious about learning the craft will either get taken by some grifter promising quick money with team play, or spend the next few years SERIOUSLY learning the game. Either way, we are safe for the next few years.

-Sonny-

P.S.- I look forward to meeting the next round of SERIOUS players here. If any of you want to make some quick money, you should join my team.

Re: Bringing down the EGOS
Posted by eyes for 21 on 08-Oct-2003 11:40:01 (#4873)

the movie could result in bad times too, the casinos are already very paranoid
and this could increase this to a new level.

Re: Bringing down the EGOS
Posted by The Mayor on 08-Oct-2003 17:47:47 (#4876)

They will be paranoid until they see the huge increase in their bottom line from these new "counters". That's exactly what happened with BTD, it's deja vu all over again.

Re: Bringing down the EGOS
Posted by The Mayor on 08-Oct-2003 14:00:43 (#4874)

When BTD was printing, casinos panicked that they would be run over by a hoard of players who could beat the game. The glory was that people who "read" BTD thought they could beat the game, but in fact, were almost all ploppies who lost big time. This HELPED the game for all of us true advantage players.

I can only hope for a similar outcome from this movie. The game has truly deteriorated in recent years, and getting a hoard of ploppy counters with high expectations for themselves may increase competition for good games, and actually improve conditions for all of us. I am overjoyed (or maybe just joyed) this movie is in process, I hope it is a HUGE hit.

--Mayor

Re: Bringing down the house.
Posted by eyes for 21 on 08-Oct-2003 15:11:52 (#4875)

The movie could make the casinos more worried than they already
are. Books are one thing and do not worry the casinos as most
casino
staff are not avid readers,but movies are different.

Re: Bringing down the house movie
Posted by HiNoon on 08-Oct-2003 18:44:52 (#4877)

Just a note here on the link you've provided.

Notice how much information is actually NOT given.

Other than Spacey, there are no other attachments to the project. No writer has been announced, no director attached. The last update was posted almost a full year ago.

Hollywood leaks information like a rusty sieve...if progress had been made...particularly on a project with the kind of hype that BDtH generated...then certainly a gossip-mill oriented webpage like movies.com would have the info. As it is, a little research shows that there have been no announcements in the Hollywood Reporter or The Daily Variety. There's no reason for a studio to keep this project secret, because the book is already published and a success.

All of this tells us that, the projected start-date for production at the end of 2003 is rather unlikely. Scripts take months to write, re-write and get approval and there doesn't appear to even be a writer on this proejct yet. Spacey and his company may have BOUGHT the rights to the book, but that in no way means that the film will ever get made.

I'd like to see it get made, because I agree with the Mayor. Ploppies are good for serious advantage players...no matter how frustrating they are, because they bring in the kind of income to the casinos that allow for better rules. If a casino can bring in ten thousand more people to play at their BJ tables by offering "counter-friendly" rules to people who only vaguely understand how to count...they will do so and profit wildly from it. Right now, there are bad rules because most people don't know the difference. But even when people DO know the difference, their egos will tell them that they are ready to play long before their skills will merit them sitting at a table. Books like BDtH provide casual gamblers with the false-confidence to lay down more money. Casinos like that a lot.

An update for those interested.
Posted by HiNoon on 12-Oct-2003 01:31:57 (#4880)

A small update on this project for anyone interested.

A writer by the name of Peter Steinfeld is attached to adapt BDtH as a screenplay.

He's an interesting choice for the adaptation. A quick run-down of his credits show that he wrote "Drowning Mona" in 2000, a black-comedy that turned semi-big with the attachment of several A-list celebs...then he wrote "Analyze That", the sequel to the Billy Crystal film "Analyze This" ...A few other TV credits, and that's it.

He may have been picked because of a screenplay called "Snatching Sinatra", the true story of a botched attempt to kidnap Ole Blue Eyes in '63. Personally, I'd like to see this one...but it's never been made, just bounced around a lot.

One thing is for sure...he's a got a great agent.

Hollywood is known for the process called "hurry-up and wait", so only time will tell whether we'll ever see BDtH on screen.

Thanks - EGO's R US
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 21-Oct-2003 14:10:34 (#4914)

for all this info. I would think they would be consulting with the guys that Ben interviewed in the book. I was hoping they would film it in Toronto, Hollywood North, where I might be able to get involved in the movie somehow. I will try to get in touch with Spacey and Steinfeld if possible.

I am hoping to have Billion Dollar Blackjack done when the movie comes out. I wanna ride that wave!

"The story of the Internet Blackjack Mafia, as told by the Godfather of online blackjack. A world wide team of players takes on the billion dollar online gaming business with amazing success. Rob McGarvey shows you what Ken Uston (Million Dollar Blackjack) and Kevin Lewis (Bringing Down the House) could have done with their teams on the World Wide Web."

Internet Blackjack Mafia membership application inside!! grin

gambling movies
Posted by drew on 13-Oct-2003 13:23:01 (#4881)

I would like to see the bdh movie made as well. anyway, there is a movie called THE COOLER coming out soon, it stars william H. macy and alex baldwinIt is supposed to be pretty excellent. the buzz is that its about a losing degenerate blackjack player. there is an interview with william h macy in Men's Journal this month regarding the movie.

on a side note, any suggestions for all time great casino/gambling movie?

Rounders *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 28-Oct-2003 08:54:59 (#5066)

Is this book worth the money ($39.99)
Posted by SammyBoy on 14-Oct-2003 13:57:35 (#4882)

The Blackjack Shuffle Tracker�s Cookbook: How Players Win (and Why They Lose) with Shuffle Tracking by Arnold Snyder

Re: Is this book worth the money ($39.99)
Posted by The Mayor on 14-Oct-2003 14:50:19 (#4883)

If you like shuffle tracking, then of course you absolutely need this book. It will quickly pay for itself at the tables. But, if you don't intend on ever tracking, then no, it is not worth it.

Shuffle tracking is a perfect example of an improvement over simple counting. A decent tracker can easily generate a 3% edge.

--Mayor

I'm Always Looking for an Edge
Posted by SammyBoy on 14-Oct-2003 15:22:04 (#4884)

Thanks Mayor. With the shuffles I've seen in the casinos these days I don't understand how ST could work.

Re: I'm Always Looking for an Edge
Posted by The Mayor on 14-Oct-2003 16:35:31 (#4886)

Exactly.

Trackable shuffles are like flashers (dealers that expose their hole card). They are rare, but when you find one, you should camp out. However, if you don't even know what to look for, then you certainly won't find one.

--Mayor

Re: I'm Always Looking for an Edge
Posted by Learning to count on 21-Oct-2003 13:45:29 (#4913)

The Mayor is right on target. I know he taught me the game.

YES
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 21-Oct-2003 13:39:53 (#4911)

Unless you already know how to track, in which case, get a copy because cost is not an issue to a tracker.

To Kevin Blackwood
Posted by SammyBoy on 14-Oct-2003 15:40:26 (#4885)

Kevin,

I just read your interview on AdvantagePlayer.com and just wanted to say thank you for your honest answers to the interviewers questions. You say that your career is winding down, do you still play? How often? Is it possible to completely walk away from a profession that you spent so much time perfecting?

Sam

Walking away *LINK*
Posted by Kevin Blackwood on 15-Oct-2003 19:20:08 (#4888)

Glad you enjoyed the interview. Some of those answers were expanded upon in a magazine article I wrote a few months back, which was reprinted by Henry Tamburin at Blackjack Insider. It might clarify some of your questions.

I haven't totally walked away from card counting. I still dabble in it, but my life had reached the point where other pursuits, such as writing, have become more interesting. I've spent a good part of my life chasing the almighty dollar. It's made me rich, but I don't really feel like I've contributed a whole lot to society at large.

So I'm trying to find some endeavours that are more rewarding in that sense, although much less in the financial sense. I know (from an earlier post) that you read my novel THE COUNTER. I tried to convey some of those feelings in that book since it is easy in our world to get blinded by money and not see what is truly important in life.

Re: Walking away
Posted by The Mayor on 16-Oct-2003 10:31:07 (#4890)

Kevin,

I just want to say how much I honor what you are doing, and how consistent it is with what this site stands for. Life comes first. Loving comes second. Everything else comes afterwards.

That said, I think it is completely consistent to also enjoy games and making $ without conflicting with the above principles. Each of us has unique talents, and expressing those talents to their fullest potential is the greatest way of achieving "Life comes first". For those who are talented at gaming, it would be a waste of life to not use those talents.

Nice to have you here,

--Mayor

Greed and Gambling *LINK*
Posted by Kevin Blackwood on 16-Oct-2003 13:31:24 (#4892)

I totally agree with your assessment Mr. Mayor. I didn't mean to imply that gambling is wrong and incompatible with noble pursuits in life. Both can co-exist.

In my particular case, I just felt I'd done it long enough and hadn't maintained a proper balance in my overall life. It's easy to get sucked up by the lifestyle and view everything as a battlefield. It's important to squeeze out as much edge as possible but sometimes the nature of the vocation can change us into people we didn't think we would ever become. I've seen a lot of vices developed by players as they sunk deeper into their vocations and I've witnessed a lot of ethics and morals erode over time (including my own).

That doesn't have to be the case and well-grounded individuals can do fine. But just like Hollywood, Vegas has a way of chewing up and spitting up many young dreamers who enter their lair with good intentions.

I'm all for taking the casinos for everything they are worth. Donald Trump is not even on my Christmas Card list. Just be careful greed doesn't get in the way of your true goals.

Mayor, Great Job on the FPLL Report! *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 16-Oct-2003 13:45:31 (#4893)

Just Finished the Article
Posted by SammyBoy on 16-Oct-2003 13:28:56 (#4891)

Thanks.

My List
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 21-Oct-2003 13:36:49 (#4910)

God
Health
Family
Friends
BONUS HUSTLING!
The JOB

EV question
Posted by illustrious bakedbean on 14-Oct-2003 20:35:28 (#4887)

hi all,

could somebody run a sim to tell me what the EV would be on a single deck game with good rules (DOA), where you bet 5 bucks when the TC is below 2, 10 bucks when it's 2-4, and 15 bucks when it's greater than 4?

assume correct basic strategy, using the "illustrious 18" indicies.

any info on standard deviations would be lovely as well. thanks.

Re: EV question
Posted by The Mayor on 18-Oct-2003 11:32:17 (#4897)

I'll take a wild guess, about $5 to $8 per hour. I could run the sim, but the EV is too small to make a sim interesting 8-)

My suggestion ... get a day job, save your money for a large enough bankroll to make playing bj worthwhile.

--Mayor

a few questions...
Posted by NewToTheGame on 15-Oct-2003 20:21:14 (#4889)

1) What is the best way of learning how to cut a certain amount of cards consistently? Is there some sort of method that someone can suggest? I can cut to +/- 5 cards consistently, but how do you really get it down solid?

2) I am looking to add to my bj collection the following:
The Blackjack Shuffle Tracker's Cookbook by Arnold Snyder,
The Card Counter's Guide to Casino Surveillance by D.V. Cellini, and
Blackjack Blueprint: How to Operate a Blackjack Team by Rick 'Night Train' Blaine

I am sure all these are extremely thorough, and provide insight into their respective subjects, but I am looking for suggestions/recommendations if these are detailed books...and are worth purchasing...

Hope the cards are falling well!

Re: a few questions...
Posted by HiNoon on 17-Oct-2003 20:44:09 (#4895)

Hey there, welcome to the game...this place has been an unimaginable wealth or information for my introduction to Advantage Play...and I hope it is the same for you.

I can't help you with precise cutting techniques...though...my experience with similar questions (how can I improve my counting speed? etc.) tells me that the best method is experience.

Looking at your book selection...I feel like you're going too far too fast. I'm relatively new to the world too...and one trip to Vegas is a drop in the ocean of experience. Personally, I feel like you should be focusing on mastery of your base skills...understanding your indices (and speeding up that count in casino conditions) before you even start thinking about the logistics behind running a team.

Don't get me wrong...those things can be fun to think about, and add fuel to your fire as you train...but I typically try to err on the side of caution when it comes to putting my (or anyone elses) money on the table.

Shuffle Tracking /casino surveillance/team logistics....Those are all important things to know about...but build your foundation first....and build it strong...then worry about how to spot a beatable shuffle, how to avoid the gaze of the pit critter, and how to signal your team in for the kill.

Just my 2 cents.

Re: a few questions...
Posted by stretch chaperone on 24-Oct-2003 13:06:52 (#5005)

welcome.

i'd recommend stanford wong's 'professional blackjack' and don schlessinger's 'blackjack attack.' the latter is very dense, but if you can understand all of that, there's no doubt you'll be ready to attack the casinos. the tables in the back of that book, while at first difficult to understand, have proven to be an extremely valuable resource in evaluating games. if you are really just starting to count, i would recommend the online blackjack school, which i believe is at blackjack-school.com.

most importantly, you should practice a LOT before you actually play. and when you start playing in a casino, you should play for small stakes before jumping into the big stuff. the one thing that can really hurt you is if you're not patient and you overbet your bankroll. usually you can only earn about 1/300th of your bankroll per hour. so if you want to make $50 an hour, you probably need $15,000 (unless you find a better game, but even then you'd need at least half of that). so depending on your financial means, it might make sense to start at $5 tables with a $3,000 bankroll. this doesn't bring in much money, but at least get some practice in. then if you have the means, get more aggressive. this game is about patience. wins and losses come in streaks.

Hi-Opt 1
Posted by Greasy John on 17-Oct-2003 16:44:32 (#4894)

Would anyone know where I can find Hi-Opt 1 indices which include values from minus to plus 14. I have The World's Greatest Blackjack Book where values are only to 6. In the book Blackjack Diaries there are broad indicies for Hi-Opt 1, however, I question their acccuracy since some of the indicies between plus and minus 6 are in contrast to WGBB. I play single-deck, but indicies for S17 and 6-deck, etc., would be great to find.

Thanks for your help.

Greasy John

Re: Hi-Opt 1
Posted by The Mayor on 18-Oct-2003 01:04:29 (#4896)

I suggest you add a sidecount of aces .... hi-opt1 is particularly weak as a straight counting system, but adding the side count will do wonders ...

As for the indices, it is no problem to get them from any standard bj sim program, e.g. Casino Verite or Wong's PBJA. Maybe someone who has a few extra moments can run the system and post the indices.

--Mayor

Re: Hi-Opt 1
Posted by Greasy John on 22-Oct-2003 19:05:51 (#4944)

Thanks for steering me in the right direction, and perhaps someone will post the sims. I hope so. I do use an Ace side count, BTW.

Greasy John

cammo when taking insurance?
Posted by Stealth on 18-Oct-2003 23:59:39 (#4898)

Glad I found you guys. It's kind of a lonely world being a counter.

Do you guys notice how we can sometimes play for hours and the count hasn't yet reach a point high enough to warrant taking insurance each time the dealer shows an ace? By this time the pit crew has already determined that we are a decent player and also smart enough not to take insurance. Then finally after grinding away a what seems to be an endless set of negitive shoes, a "monster count". So we start chunking the out the chips and there it comes; a hard 16 and the dealer is showing ace. My point is that taking ins. while having a hand of 19 or 20 looks quite natural but 16! and tossing out a black chip while the boss is watching? It makes me real uncomfy especially when it usually works. Even the players make comments about why I took ins. on a 16. I sometimes head for the doors after that happens. Any comments on how to smooth over and cammo the situation?

Re: cammo when taking insurance?
Posted by Ed Tice on 20-Oct-2003 04:35:51 (#4901)

This is not really a cammo suggestion but if you can learn to keep the insurance side-count as described by Stanford Wong in Professional Blackjack (I can't do it although I practice at it all the time, so eventually I'll have to pick up the skill), you'll find yourself making some insurance bets in negative shoes sometimes. Plus you might be able to identify times when insurance is a marginal bet and go ahead and make it if your EV allows for this without killing your profits.

Re: cammo when taking insurance?
Posted by Sonny on 20-Oct-2003 10:44:04 (#4902)

A few ideas for cammo:

If the dealer has been getting a lot of blackjacks lately: "With the streak you're having, I'd be crazy NOT to take insurance."

If the dealer hasn't gotten any lately: "You haven't had any in a while, so you're due."

With a big bet out: "I'm not going to risk it with this much money on the table. I'd better play it safe."

Depending on what type of act you are using, you should be able to think of variations that fit your style. Also, don't wory about explaining yourself to the other players. They don't need to know anything. Even the bosses won't be around the whole time, and the eye-in-the-sky can't hear you anyway. The only person you really need to worry about most of the time is the dealer, and if you chose to play with a good one you don't even need to worry about that!

-Sonny-

Re: cammo when taking insurance?
Posted by The Mayor on 20-Oct-2003 14:05:53 (#4903)

This is a very tough question ... and on a LSR game it can look even worse. You insure your 16 against the dealer's A, lose the insurance, then surrender! Talk about heat generating moves!

I don't have a good answer for this ... the one I usually use is that I like to insure my hand whenever I make a big bet, because that's when it really matters. But I doubt this flies very far.

--Mayor

Re: cammo when taking insurance?
Posted by Ed Tice on 21-Oct-2003 10:53:36 (#4908)

Nobody liked my advice above (but I'm still working on being able to do it!)

Speaking of which, isn't this an opportunity to get some "hand interaction"?

I suppose it doesn't help your cammo, but if you are going to leave the table afterwards anyway, why not ask everybody else at the table to put up an insurance bet for you at their spots? Use one of the lines above and see how many spots you can fill with insurance! (Don't exceed your Kelly betting criteria, though). After all, if we all agree that its a heat generating move and you're going to leave the table anyway, why not get some money out there?

Ever since this thread came up, I've been trying to calculate just how much additional EV you could get this way. 1/13 hands, on average, lead to an insurance situation. But a higher percentage when the TC is high.

At a crowded table, could you flat-bet through (using full play indices) but get enough $ on the table just with insurance hand interaction? Not that I'm advocating this strategy. I am just very interested in the mathematics of the game and always looking for crazy, alternative strategies!

But I guess crazy alternative strategies might have some value in that if you mix them in with your normal counting techniques on a per-shuffle basis, it may turn down the heat (or it may crank it up!). But hey, worth a shot!

Re: cammo when taking insurance?
Posted by learning to count on 21-Oct-2003 13:43:37 (#4912)

Hey stealth the book says take insurance at a plus 3 TC in a six deck game. Plus 1 or better TC at single deck. So take it. If your nervous then take it only on big bets. Same with surrender ya gotta take it when the count says so. Id ont believ in camo as much as I do in time in at play and being aware of your surrounding environment. I was watching a friend play Blackjack recently. This friend is a world class pro. He plays masterfully. He is aware of everything arpound him. The count, the bet spread, the dealer, the ploppy infestations, the pit crew and the suits on the floor. He wins! He rarely gets caught. His big tip was keep your play short on single deck and wong in on crowded tables when you have the advantage. It sounds complex AND IT IS!!!!! So keep perfecting your game! LTC

Counters Counter the Discrimination
Posted by the "Stealth" on 19-Oct-2003 14:12:49 (#4900)

Hey Ya'll:

I think we need a phrase that our community of advantage players can use as their motto to protest the discrimination that we face. How's this?:

"NO GOVERNMENT, CORPORATION, GROUP OR INDIVIDUAL HAS A RIGHT TO IMPOSE A BAN OR RESTRICTIONS ON A PERSON BECAUSE OF THEIR INTELLECTUAL ABILITIES.

Let's pass it around. Maybe sooner or later it will get to somebody powerful in congress who will do something. Comments, revisions or additions encouraged. ???

the "Stealth"

Re: Counters Counter the Discrimination
Posted by The Mayor on 20-Oct-2003 14:08:58 (#4904)

The Government can't discriminate, at all, under any circumstances ... but they can and do provide "benefits" for "classes" -- e.g. Blacks and Affirmative Action. So, the only way this can work is if we can identify smart people as a protected class. I'm all for it 8-)

Re: Counters Counter the Discrimination
Posted by Learning to count on 21-Oct-2003 13:36:04 (#4909)

Hey a private business has a right to bar anyone for "NO" reason from thier establishment. That is law in many states including Nevada. If the casino wants you off the property then they can ask you to leave. If you refuse then they should call the police and make a complaint which will give the police the power to order you to leave. If you refuse then the police can arrest you for trespass. This is law!

So this babble about human and intellectual rights is just that babble. If you can prove that the casino has outed you because of race, creed, sexual preference then have at it hire a lawyer and sue the casino in federal court.

If a casino states "we want you off of our property because you are a counter/advantage player and are winning (legally). They are kicking you out for a reason. This technically they cannot do. Good luck getting the jury to believe that this is a violation of your right to be a gambling degenerate. Unless you can prove that it is a civil rights violation issue you are sinking in quicksand. The only way to be a successful AP is to become an expert at the games.

Re: Counters Counter the Discrimination
Posted by the "Stealth" on 22-Oct-2003 21:17:01 (#4952)

LTC, I beg to differ with your opinion. It is a form of discrimination! Why? Because upon entering a casino, there is no disclaimer as to the rules of the B.J. game. Also, all the promos are about winning! That is what players are supposed to try there best to do, isn't it? I've even been challenged by pit staff. Even ridiculed for thinking that their game can be beat. I was once told that I am stupid to even play the game. There is nothing that ever says that we are not allowed to count cards. There is nothing that defines what card counting really is. In fact, I was barred from 3 casinos before I could even count! I looked for good cards (big) and bad cards (little ones). Upped my bets after noticing an unusual amount of bad cards go by (single deck). Even got 86'ed twice while I was loosing.

To change the law though would be like trying to move the Grand Tetons (excuse spelling. I only learned how to add and subtract). Maybe we really don't want to change it. It's never gonna be perfect for us anyway, even if the laws were changed. However, Ken Uston made quite a dent in the way the law reads in N.Jersey. Do the research, check it out.

Personally, I'm certainly not a gambling degenerate. I've got a lot of time and effort logged into getting to the level I am at. Maybe what you mean, a "gambling degenerate" would be the perception of a jury. Yes, that is true.

Stealth

Re: Counters Counter the Discrimination
Posted by Learning to count on 22-Oct-2003 22:03:51 (#4954)

"LTC, I beg to differ with your opinion. It is a form of discrimination! Why? Because upon entering a casino, there is no disclaimer as to the rules of the B.J. game. Also, all the promos are about winning! That is what players are supposed to try there best to do, isn't it? I've even been challenged by pit staff. Even ridiculed for thinking that their game can be beat. I was once told that I am stupid to even play the game. There is nothing that ever says that we are not allowed to count cards. There is nothing that defines what card counting really is. In fact, I was barred from 3 casinos before I could even count! I looked for good cards (big) and bad cards (little ones). Upped my bets after noticing an unusual amount of bad cards go by (single deck). Even got 86'ed twice while I was loosing."

Stealth what I am trying to say that getting kicked out of a casino is by law the casino's right to do. They do not need a reason by law. Nor can they give a reason when doing so. If they have a legitimate reason for removal and trespass it has to be for a violation of a criminal gaming statute. They are allwoed to pck and choose who they want to expell. They need not have a reason. I do agree they are being "discriminatory"; because we all know they dont want winners/advantage players. They still have the right to expell you. This is in reality impossible to change. Sorry but that is the truth.

"To change the law though would be like trying to move the Grand Tetons (excuse spelling. I only learned how to add and subtract). Maybe we really don't want to change it. It's never gonna be perfect for us anyway, even if the laws were changed. However, Ken Uston made quite a dent in the way the law reads in N.Jersey. Do the research, check it out."

I agree but they still have the right to expell you for "no reason" and they went further by making Atlantic City Blackjack a carnival game.

"Personally, I'm certainly not a gambling degenerate. I've got a lot of time and effort logged into getting to the level I am at. Maybe what you mean, a "gambling degenerate" would be the perception of a jury. Yes, that is true."

My position is that the general public considers gambling as entertainment and or a vice. There is little affection for a "professional gambler" who is viewed as a degenerate. Hey I am an advantage player. I have been moderately successful and I am getting better. My aunt is currently trying to get me into Gamblers anonymous. I only play black jack when I have an advantage as well as other lucartive games. I win! She firmly believes I am sick. And yes I meant the juries view unless the jury is made up of Stanford wong, The Mayor, Arnold Snyder, Don Schlesinger, Las Vegas Bear, Anthony Curtis, ETC. Then maybe you will have a chance. LTC

"Stealth "

Fear of Player Cards
Posted by the "Stealth" on 20-Oct-2003 22:39:35 (#4906)

I really feel like I�m missing out on a lot of valuable comps because I�m afraid of using player cards and being tracked more than whatever they are doing already. Plus, when signing up for one, they get to have all your personal info from your drivers license. I don�t like that too well.

Often someone from the pit usually approaches me after I�ve won 2 or 3 giant hands in a row and asks something like: �Sir, would you like us to set you up with a player card?� As a reply, I usually make some excuse relating to �bad luck if I ever use one of those things�.

Why do they usually approach me with that question right after I smoke �em out of some significant $ ?

Comments welcomed.

Stealth

Re: Fear of Player Cards
Posted by SammyBoy on 21-Oct-2003 15:13:52 (#4917)

Good question, my guess is that they want to know who you are. You are not supposed to win. With a players card you are in their computer and they can track your sessions easier than having to have each pit member rembering who you are. If they are able to track you as a consisten winner, the party is over for you. Do you think they are asking slot jackpot winners if they would like a players card? I played craps early on in my gambling career and don't ever remember them asking if I would like a players card. I'm a red chipper to light green and I will use a players card if I'm going to a casino that I plan to play several times a year. If I seldom play a certain casino I will not use the card. I may have to change this once I become a black chipper and not use the card at all.

Re: Fear of Player Cards
Posted by Victoria on 21-Oct-2003 16:29:59 (#4919)

Good question. I agree that if you are not planning on playing often in a casino, why bother giving them more info than they need.
I use my card in the casino I stay in, have played there for years, and because it is not one of the super places on the strip my being a better with about a $100 average gets me some comps that make it worth it. A mini-suite, food including a reasonible amount in their best restaurants, and free admission to tournaments, can add up to a decent comp.
I should add though that my act is very good and the only time that they get an accurate count of a winning session is probably when it is a real short one.
Victoria

Re: Fear of Player Cards
Posted by Eminem on 21-Oct-2003 22:38:06 (#4927)

Player cards is a way for the casino to keep track of their big betting suckers. Its part of the casino's marketing strategy. They keep records address and ph# so that they can draw big betting suckers back to lose at their casino. However it can turn into a nasty little arseno for the casino if they do pick up consistent winning sessions (especially on bj tables).
Being a black chipper, it will actually get u more heat to turn down a player card offer. Nobody would refuse a free meal or a free ticket to a show or something.
Unless u plan on bouncing around casinos all over the world playing at each casino once or twice a year, u need to get into the latter part of card counting "The Act" in order to get longetivity.

Re: Fear of Player Cards
Posted by Stealth on 24-Oct-2003 19:14:16 (#5028)

Victoria:

Based on your name, I'm assuming that you're of the female gender. I wish I was a lady too but only while playing black jack. (fellas, notice I didn't abbreviate "black jack" this time). :-) Being a man at the tables I'm assuming is probably more difficult and the type of single man I am probably got me 86'ed just because I've flirted with the ladies some in my past. Gotta worry about the "envey factor" too as man. The male pit boys just can't seem to keep the ladies interested in themselves while I'm in the loop. I gotta fight everything ya know, ....... sucks big-time.

Tell us more. I think we all like to hear your perspective of things.

-Stealth-

Re: Fear of Player Cards
Posted by Victoria on 26-Oct-2003 14:33:10 (#5047)

Stealth

I will not say much on a public board but I think you have the message. It is easier for a woman, especially a younger woman because she does not fit the CC profile.

Re: Fear of Player Cards
Posted by HiNoon on 22-Oct-2003 01:07:43 (#4928)

I'm going to offer a different perspective here.

Players cards do indeed provide casinos with your personal information. Using your credit card at a casino does too, and as we all know, many casinos share their database information...so chances are, unless you're cash-only...you're anonymity is a thin illusion at best. If a casino wants to know who you are, then they'll probably be able to find out.

More to the point...aside from massive bet spreads and bold ten-splits, WHY would a casino want to know who you are? Is winning a good enough reason to get tracked? I'm going to suggest that winning alone isn't usually enough (clearly some cases are going to draw heat for their own unique reasons..large amounts, etc.). Why not? Because even if the casino has an undeniable 5% edge over the player....45% of the hands played will still be player-wins. Meaning that at any given time...almost half the people at the tables can be winning and the casino is still bringing in cash. It happens. People win. Casinos know that their statistics guarantee that they will win slightly more often...but not all the time. Casinos WANT to have winners. A winner at every table draws six hopefuls to the remaining seats.

So, if winning alone isn't good enough to merit scrutiny...what then?

How about acting shady? The pit boss sees a player laying down chips for a few hours, they look like they're having a "good streak"...the casino has a vested interest in keeping that player at the tables...because eventually...that player will succumb to the casino edge. So Mr. Critter saunters over to the table to offer a Player's Card...to amass comps...free stuff. The player dodges the question...apparently, this player is the only person in Las Vegas who hates free stuff.

If I were that pit critter...I'd keep an eye on the player. By rejecting the Club Card...the player is waving a huge red flag that has bright yellow letters on it reading, "I'M DIFFERENT THAN OTHER PLAYERS!!"

Now...a slot machine can keep tabs on every penny in and out of the machine...every play you make...every push of the button....but a table isn't a slot machine. When they swipe your card (Someone correct me if I'm wrong) and log your play, they don't care what you win or lose...they are entering your bet-per-hand. Comps are based on a percentage of what you put down on the table...not what you take off of the table. The pit boss simply doesn't have the time to monitor and enter your win/loss ratio...And even if they come by to check out your ever-growing stack of chips....nothing is stopping you from coloring up a nice stack of red into a pocketable black chip.

So...I always get a player's card. It's good cover...I'm just one of the many...looking for a free buffet. I actually enjoy getting comped. And nothing is stopping me from NOT giving my card to the dealer when I wong in to a hot shoe, preserving my "anonymity" and giving me the perfect "out" when the pit boss comes by to scope me out. ("Sir, can I interest you a Club Card?"..."OH! I already HAVE one...I forgot to put it down...thanks for the reminder...hey...is this a good time to hit the buffet? Maybe you can help me out with a meal comp...this is my sister's first time to Vegas, and I just lost a grand on Keno...").

Etc. Etc.

Basically...I think there are valid reasons to NOT use a Club Card at many of the places you go ...but there's no reason to avoid signing up for a few. Plus, nothin' beats a lobster dinner for the price of the tip.

HiNoon, I Like Your Point of View.
Posted by SammyBoy on 22-Oct-2003 08:39:12 (#4930)

Maybe I should rethink my strategy. Great points.

Re: Fear of Player Cards
Posted by Learning to count on 22-Oct-2003 09:30:34 (#4931)

1: Only get a players card if you are playing for comps and or low stakes (and you are going stay at low stakes during your card ounting career).
2: A players card should be attained only if you are willing to give up your identity. If you can get one in another name better yet. Watch out for the legalities of using false ID.
3: Learn what casinos give the best comps for your play then get a player card at those casinos.
4: If your going to play at a higher rate green to black I would not get a card. Or only show it when you lose.

REMEMBER IF YOU WIN THEN THE CASINO EVALUATES YOU FIRST FOR CHEATING AND OR COUNTING. IF THEY ARE CONVINCED YOUR A LUCKY GAMBLER THEN THEY WILL INTICE YOU TO STAY AND OR COME BACK IN THE FUTURE. WINNERS ARE NOT WHAT THE CASINO WANTS!

MANY PLAYERS reject them
Posted by eyes for 21 on 26-Oct-2003 13:08:46 (#5045)

Many players reject the players cards,because people are sick of companies
selling the information and we like privacy.

Its not that unusual to turn down the cards.

It may be wise to get them at some casinos where they do not
fret too much and leave some alone. Many casinos still do not
ask for licenses,remember never to get players cards from the pit,
always go to the players club first and then
decide if you want one. Circus circus used to be one
of the best places to play now one of the worst had over
three crew members
looking over my license and yet it really was my real one too.

Re: MANY PLAYERS reject them
Posted by Victoria on 27-Oct-2003 11:40:12 (#5056)

When I can stay three nights in a nice room for free, get my meals comped and have a free entry into one of those constant button pushing, booring slot tournaments for free, I give that casino my information and also change my approach concerning spread. I have always thought that if they are watching you, perhaps running a CC program on your play, that your spread is one of the most important factors. Giving up my 8-1 for a more moderate 4-1 to me is a fair exchange for the comps and has so far kept the heat off. Since that is the only place I have a players card that I intend to keep when I go elsewhere I am more aggressive but have accepted them at other places. Any thoughts?

The Ultimate Play
Posted by the "Stealth" on 20-Oct-2003 23:30:49 (#4907)

Anyone ever split faces 4 times (technically it's 3 times but in terms of house math, they call it 4 for some bizarre reason) or as many as the house will allow? Naturally the count is way up there and the dealer is showing 5 or 6. Bryce says to do it. Worried about "heat".

P.S. How about catching some aces with the faces for some really extreme doubling opportunities? Can it be done successfully without going directly to jail? Any takers? :-o So who's gonna be the first in the world to make the most perfect and supreme single black jack play ever? Starting with four split faces and ending up with catching faces on each doubled soft 21. 1st one to do it and live through it is "DA MAN". :-) Some of us just gotta dream big! Comments always welcomed and enjoyed.

Stealth

Re: The Ultimate Play
Posted by SammyBoy on 21-Oct-2003 15:17:49 (#4918)

I never split tens. It is probably the play that is guaranteed to get you noticed. The ploppies may even lynch you if they're liquored up enough.

Re: The Ultimate Play
Posted by Learning to count on 22-Oct-2003 09:54:40 (#4932)

I split tens. I admit it! I do it! Once while playing a lucrative six decker I had a high tc of 8 and I bet $50. I recieved two face cards. The dealer had 6 up. I split em. The ploppies gasped the dealer said "are you sure about dat". I said "yeah, what the hel$ its only money". One ploppy swore at me. The dealer dealt me two aces. I looked up at the swearing ploppy and said "and your point sir". He got up and left in a huff. There are numerous times when you can do it. So if you can; DO IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: The Ultimate Play
Posted by The Mayor on 22-Oct-2003 10:03:36 (#4933)

I've doubled down on T-T vs. 6. Yep, you guessed it, the next card was an Ace.

Now, that one brought some heat!

--Mayor

Re: The Ultimate Play
Posted by Learning to count on 22-Oct-2003 11:48:35 (#4938)

Ugh I think you meant to say "split". Why dont you ever do this when I'm around
And why when we play at the same table you win and I lose????? Ploppy Jimmy says your just lucky and he has the inside luck move and carries his voodoo doll from now on!

Re: The Ultimate Play
Posted by The Mayor on 22-Oct-2003 19:29:00 (#4946)

No, I DID NOT mean to say "split". I doubled down on a hard twenty.

You figure out why!

--Mayor

Re: The Ultimate Play
Posted by Learning to count on 22-Oct-2003 20:59:48 (#4950)

aaahhhhhhh the ace was a comming! Sorry your honor my mistake. LTC

You Must Have Been Ace Tracking? *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 23-Oct-2003 16:25:39 (#4978)

best plays
Posted by eyes for 21 on 23-Oct-2003 19:47:26 (#4987)

usually reserved for hard dbls
ex. 12,13and even 14's

serious plays reserved for the elite

as for splitting ten,yes, everyone should do it occasionally
but to resplit,,,,nah..thats a contest between stupidy and greedy
Idon't care what the books say

Luck
Posted by JLP on 21-Oct-2003 17:50:19 (#4920)

A few thoughts and questions:

Please keep in mind that I'm a novice!

On average the "house" has a slight advantage over the player! This means on an average session/day of playing, when it all is balanced out, the "house" would have come up with slightly more winning hands?!

For those that don't believe in "good luck" or "bad luck".
Why is it that winning and loosing streaks occur?
Why is it that on some sessions/days, the dealer pulls off miracles, even with 2,3,4,5 and 6 up cards?
Why is it that on some sessions/days, we draw nothing but 12, 13, 14, 15, and 16s and bust or get beat?

I have verified this with some dealers, (and repeatedly experienced through playing)both in Las Vegas [El Cortez] and at Wendover [Montego Bay, Rainbow], that Oriental woman dealers are deadly as far as luck; casinos love to hire them for that reason. In general, older woman dealers are luckier then others.

This brings me to the next questions:
What is luck, why are some luckier then others, and can luck be stimulated?

Peace!

Re: Luck
Posted by Learning to count on 21-Oct-2003 20:59:51 (#4924)

JLP the only way to tell that you are lucky is looking at past circumstances. There is no way you can predict luck. With card counting you at least know when there is an advantage for you to win money. The more complex the count the better at predicting the out come of each hand. If you feel that you can predict a streak and can prove you have such mystical power I will back you at the tables. Otherwise start reading more about how card counting works. So, no more silly ploppy nonsense.

Re: Luck
Posted by The Mayor on 21-Oct-2003 21:02:25 (#4925)

Sorry to be so harsh on you, I apologize in advance. You said you are a beginner, so that is no doubt the view you have. But here is the truth.

Your post is sheer nonsense.

With kindest regards,

Mayor

Re: Luck
Posted by Eminem on 21-Oct-2003 22:14:12 (#4926)

Luck is the fluctuations that u will experience with games of probabilities.
Positive fluctuations that favours u is what u would consider as "GOOD LUCK", while negative fluctuations is what u call "BAD LUCK".
Please notice that card counting is all about probabilities where u try to gain an insight as to the probable outcome of the future hands. "Probable" is not "certainty", so u'd expect those miracle hands(as u'd call them) to occur. A more complex count will give u a slightly more accurate judgment on the probable advantage or disadvantage of the next hand. Most of the time u'd find that, if a few different counts were used on the same table, the bet-up time is about the same. However there are times when a more complex counting strategy will pick out advantage hands which werent picked up by simpler counting strategies.
If u are going to make something out of card counting, the first thing u need to drill into ur head is the fact that miracle hands do happen even though they r unlikely ("unlikely" does not equal to "never happen").
Playing probable advantage hands with card counting requires alot of patient and self discipline, u need to grind it out into the long run. Dont flatter urself with short term high positive fluctuations, and dont get too upset with negative fluctuations (cos SHXT does happen at times). Just do ur thing and do it well and thou shall be blessed with glory.

Re: Luck
Posted by Learning to count on 22-Oct-2003 08:04:31 (#4929)

Excellent post buuuuut I have to disagree with the following;

""Luck is the fluctuations that u will experience with games of probabilities.
Positive fluctuations that favours u is what u would consider as "GOOD LUCK", while negative fluctuations is what u call "BAD LUCK.""

Fluctuations are just the movement above and below and along the x line if x=o. These are the normal movement of the situation at hand. If you did look at the whole deck and knew every card that came out you could make perfect decisions. Since a person playing the game does not have this information the results are linked to a metaphysical belief of luck. Just because you cant see all the cards does not support the luck theory. Card counting allows you to gain information that gets you closer to that knowledge and to allow you to play the advantage. Now the only other weakness and I always ponder is that statiscally all simulations are finite but the actual formula could be drawn out to infinity. But since we are finite we have to accept the simulations. Just my math ignorant humble oppinion.

Pure Math
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 22-Oct-2003 10:58:20 (#4935)

What is pure math, pure truth, pure anything, can be turned into pure garbage by our own interpretation of it after the fact. I've had the noodles and wontons kicked out of me, and crushed the chicken balls and busted sweat and sour spare ribs off of different dealers. Good luck is how many hands won in a row? Bad luck is how many hands lost in a row? Time and time again I get people telling me "I lost 7 hands in a row at this place. Is that normal?" It is normal if you have been playing for 5 years because it has happened to you over and over again. It is still normal if you have never played a hand in your life. What you need is someone, like the Mayor, who has experience to pass on to pass it on, and that is what he is doing. You are learning about yourself at the same time you are learning about Blackjack.

You will find most dealers seem "lucky" because they have the house edge on their side. Once you have the edge you will find your "luck" changing.

Rob McLucky

Re: Pure Math
Posted by The Mayor on 22-Oct-2003 15:11:39 (#4940)

Or how about this definition of "luck":

Luck is what happens when preparation meets opportunity.

Re: Pure Math
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 22-Oct-2003 19:32:31 (#4947)

Old but still true Mayor.

Re: Luck
Posted by Ed Tice on 22-Oct-2003 10:44:49 (#4934)

Of course the thing with luck (or variance) is that it makes it hard to judge your own play! You might be making lots of mistakes counting but still come out ahead. Soon you trust your abilities only to get wiped out. Or maybe you are a great counter who comes out way behind on some sessions and gives it up.

The hard part of measuring your blackjack performance can be that its hard to see the trendlines quickly enough to make adjustments if you are playing a losing game!

The pit boss wont come tell you that you put out too big of a bet for a TC or that you should have deviated from basic strategy based on the count... (although if you ever find one who would, let me know, I'll be in that casino).

So in that regard, all luck is bad luck... if they'd just give me 0.5% of my wager on every hand I played...

Re: Luck
Posted by learning to count on 22-Oct-2003 11:41:41 (#4937)

"The hard part of measuring your blackjack performance can be that its hard to see the trendlines quickly enough to make adjustments if you are playing a losing game!"

Interesting...."see the trendlines quickly enough..." silly ploppy voodoo nonsense. Good post though. I do aggree with leaving a game that your losing at a rate that will obviously burn out your bankroll. If you lose close to half its time to stop and adjust your bet rates or stop all together and do some soul searching. I am weak and I will bail if my Bankroll is in danger. There are other days to do battle. IMHO LTC

On another subject, ED - ripping off BJ21.com
Posted by Titaniumman on 22-Oct-2003 17:38:07 (#4941)

I see that you and somebody called Caitlin Weaver are discussing on Card Counter Cafe "sharing a Greenchip membership".

Sharing a membership is theft. BJ21.com is a reputable site owned by Stanford Wong that provides many free services to the blackjack community and many more services for a very cheap price to Greenchip members.

You appear to be new to the community, but I see you are posting here, on CCC, and on RGE. Ripping off one of the sites will not put you in good stead with the other members of the community.

Keep in mind that the management of this site is good friends with the management of BJ21.com. I am very confident that they will look upon this endeavor with as ill a view as I and many others do.

I would strongly advise you to apologize to the BJ21 administration.

-T-

Theft of services
Posted by Al Rogers on 22-Oct-2003 18:40:56 (#4943)

"Sharing" a Green Chip password is stealing. When we determine that someone is sharing their password, we terminate their membership.

Green Chip is only $12.25 per quarter. If someone can't afford that, they shouldn't even be thinking about casino games.

Thanks, Titaniumman, for pointing out this attempted theft.

Al Rogers
BJ21.com

Al@bj21.com

Re: Theft of services
Posted by The Mayor on 22-Oct-2003 19:20:58 (#4945)

The community of advantage players is a small one. Mostly we know each other, and we very much like and respect each other.

I have the highest regard for those who run bj21.com and bjforum.com, and am good friends with many of the principles. I will do everything in my power to cooperate with them with on matters such as this.

I completely agree with Al and T-man -- sharing a gc subscription is stealing and has no place in our community. There is so much money to be made that one time costs are a third-order term that should be ignored by the serious advantage player. That is, get your own subscription!

We are here to support each other.

--Mayor

Re: Theft of services
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 22-Oct-2003 19:45:24 (#4948)

Welcome to our tight knit community Ed! I was hoping someone would have taken a strip off him where the crime was brewing up. Like I said about AS ST cookbook: it's pretty cheap for any tracker, and worth it if you want to learn to track. Give Ed a bit of time to get his bankroll rolling and he'll make a great customer to keep all the big names in the book selling business happy! ;> No theft was committed I hope, and Ed has been saved from a life of crime by all the King's men.

Re: Theft of services
Posted by Learning to count on 22-Oct-2003 20:58:14 (#4949)

WHew and I thought the casinos were watching! All is forgiven Ed just dont piss off the BEAR! His bite is much worse then his growl. I know I have seen the bear in action! $12.50 is cheap. Hell a carton of Cigs are 17 dollars. All ya get from cigarettes is cancer. Greenchip I must say is very valuable!

Re: Theft of services
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 22-Oct-2003 21:09:58 (#4951)

I've never had the urge to join GC. Maybe because I live in 8deckville Ontario, or because I've never heard anything fantastic about it. Tell me why you like GC LTC

I never had the urge to get a copy of BJF until Barry Meadow's new article was added to it. Was impressed with it.

Re: Theft of services
Posted by Learning to count on 22-Oct-2003 22:10:53 (#4955)

Rob Greenchip is a must. No man is an island. Greenchip has been invaluable to me as has cbjn. I have made numerous contacts with many other advantage players who have intelligence of advantages in gaming around the world. Green chip has also taken me from ploppyhood to playing at a professional level at not just black jack but other positive EV situations. Rob if anything, being affiliated with one of the blackjack gods and I mean Stanford Wong is worth the $12.50 alone. Rob your missing the boat.

The question is, why didn't you, Rob?
Posted by Titaniumman on 22-Oct-2003 21:40:25 (#4953)

I was hoping someone would have taken a strip off him where the crime was brewing up.

I don't Yahoo. I only occasionally check out CCC, and I go through BJ21's link to get there. I don't know the pecking order of CCC, but you seem to be the head honcho there.

I was having a slow afternoon at work in the Eastern Time Zone today when I read the "BJ21 Conspiracy". I was dismayed. I had already read some of Ed's posts over at RGE, but for obvious reasons, I no longer post there unless necessary.

Since I don't post on CCC, I tried to respond on this site, but my work computer as well as I did not know my password which was at home. I had to wait until I got home to respond to this mess that was posted two days ago on Monday.

Ed seems to be a nice enough guy, but committed a serious error in judgement. I feel I gave him an out by stating he appears to be new to the community, and he should apologize to BJ21. The real culprit is this Caitlin Weaver who is trying to make this deal by private email.

Welcome to our tight knit community...

Tighten it up Rob, and deal with Caitlin Weaver. Do the right thing. The smallness of the dollar doesn't matter. I've already proven that. Right is might.

-T-

Re: The question is, why didn't you, Rob?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 23-Oct-2003 10:33:14 (#4965)

I don't Yahoo. I only occasionally check out CCC, and I go through BJ21's link to get there. I don't know the pecking order of CCC, but you seem to be the head honcho there.

I am assistant mod to John May.

Where were you reading about the BJ21 Conspiracy? I did a search for it at the CCC but nothing came up.

Tighten it up Rob, and deal with Caitlin Weaver. Do the right thing. The smallness of the dollar doesn't matter. I've already proven that. Right is might.

I like to let things sort themselves out. It looks like they have done so now. The aleged perp finds that SF21 is not worth the effort, every hand has been slaped that needs a slap, and no ones hand is in anyones "cookie" jar.

I have my own issues with the site management at BJ21, not with Stan Wong. That had nothing to do with the "sharing incident" posts being left up. I have found that with yahoo, after someone posts the message has gone out to everyone's mailbox. BECAUSE I left it up, you guys got to see it, and respond to it. Below what looks like bad judgement is something a lot deeper.

Unable to post at Card Counters Cafe
Posted by Al Rogers on 22-Oct-2003 22:41:46 (#4957)

I tried to respond to the posts of the two would-be scoundrels, but my posts did not appear.

I have never posted anything on any Yahoo site, so maybe I just don't understand how to navigate the board. Or is it a moderated site, and my posts were not "allowed"?

Al Rogers

Al@bj.com

Re: Unable to post at Card Counters Cafe
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 23-Oct-2003 09:55:46 (#4964)

Hi Al

I can see where you guys tried to post at the CCC:

10/23/2003 12:30 am alrogers89 <al@bj21.com> Post sent via web: "Re: Theft of services"
10/23/2003 12:33 am alrogers89 <al@bj21.com> Post sent via web: "Theft of services"
10/23/2003 12:35 am alrogers89 <al@bj21.com> Post sent via web: "Theft of services"
10/23/2003 12:43 am chris62vw <Email Private> Post sent via web: "Sharing your bj21.com password"

You have to be a member to post. Neither of Al's emials are members, but chris62vw is a member, but his post hasn't shown up yet. I've invited all three addresses to join.

No BJ21 membership for me, everybody wins.
Posted by Ed Tice on 23-Oct-2003 04:42:54 (#4962)

Thanks for everybody pointing out the error in my ways!

I have visited the BJ21 free message board and don't see much activity, nevermind much valuable information. Furthermore the software doesn't work and I have never managed to actually post a message.

I own a number of books by Stanford Wong and, although the content was good, felt a bit uncomfortable with the amount of "plugging" of his other products that I found in the book.

I have no concerns with opening my wallet for things that I consider valuable as I have purchased quite a few books as well as software (including the very expensive CVData).

I have interest in one and only one piece of content to be found in the green chip area of BJ21 which is that I heard rumor that somebody posted an effective counting strategy for the Spanish Fun 21 game.

SInce everybody here is well versed in copyright law, all would agree that there is no such thing as copyright on an idea, only on the expression of that idea. So if somebody were to read the ideas on that site and to express them differently, there wouldn't be a problem. Whether the expression was "different enough" could only be decided by a trial judge.

Since Caitlin is looking to "share" a membership and since I am looking for only one piece of content and probably wouldn't be coming back, it would seem perfectly legal and resonable to me that I could buy the membership, find the one piece of information I need and then sell it to her for half of the original cost.

Or would you find that objectionable?

Would you find it equally objectionable if I bought my counting books used on eBay? (I actually bought mine new). Would it be unethical for me to lend these books to my friend who also wants to learn something about counting. Or he is "stealing" by borrowing my book instead of buying his own. (We aren't talking about copying the whole book here, but borrowing/lending).

Although I respect the opinions of everybody who attacked me, I feel as if somebody were looking to pick a fight without really having all of the facts.

Re: No BJ21 membership for me, everybody wins.
Posted by Learning to count on 23-Oct-2003 07:37:47 (#4963)

Thanks for everybody pointing out the error in my ways!

"I have visited the BJ21 free message board and don't see much activity, nevermind much valuable information."

The archives alone are worth a gold mine. The activity does slow down but when it gets hot it can burn your keyboard. Now arent you being a little bit defensive.

"Furthermore the software doesn't work and I have never managed to actually post a message."

Come on now your scraping the bottom of the barrel for negativity!

"I own a number of books by Stanford Wong and, although the content was good, felt a bit uncomfortable with the amount of "plugging" of his other products that I found in the book."

Please the books are considered the foundation of modern card counting!

"I have no concerns with opening my wallet for things that I consider valuable as I have purchased quite a few books as well as software (including the very expensive CVData)."

You seem well read so why criticize Wong's works?????

"I have interest in one and only one piece of content to be found in the green chip area of BJ21 which is that I heard rumor that somebody posted an effective counting strategy for the Spanish Fun 21 game."

Wow spanish twenty one is a waste of time and getting an edge there well who wants to have to work that hard!

"SInce everybody here is well versed in copyright law, all would agree that there is no such thing as copyright on an idea, only on the expression of that idea. So if somebody were to read the ideas on that site and to express them differently, there wouldn't be a problem. Whether the expression was "different enough" could only be decided by a trial judge."

I agree and since this is a civil matter who cares your not going to subscribe anyway.

"Since Caitlin is looking to "share" a membership and since I am looking for only one piece of content and probably wouldn't be coming back, it would seem perfectly legal and resonable to me that I could buy the membership, find the one piece of information I need and then sell it to her for half of the original cost."

Have at it but rememeber BJ21 does have the right to deny you service and or cancel it.

"Or would you find that objectionable?"

Like I said who cares. There are probably others who are doing the same thing. Especially the casino's

"Would you find it equally objectionable if I bought my counting books used on eBay? (I actually bought mine new). Would it be unethical for me to lend these books to my friend who also wants to learn something about counting. Or he is "stealing" by borrowing my book instead of buying his own. (We aren't talking about copying the whole book here, but borrowing/lending)."

Have at it. Buying used books is legal. The issue here is that BJ21 has a copyright and when a person purchases its information /service it is a contract between the service and that person. Sorta like when you buy a CD.

"Although I respect the opinions of everybody who attacked me, I feel as if somebody were looking to pick a fight without really having all of the facts."

"Ed "

I agree I think we have all been a little hard on you and I apologize. Your action is normal. When I first subscribed to BJ21 I gave some casino intelligence to my cousin Panthercounter. I thought about splitting the cost but he said he would get his own subscription and he wanted to stay above board and be fair. I decided for me that he was right. Plus the cost is minimal for what I have learned and the people I have befriended: LVBEAR, The Mayor, JohnJ, Stanford Wong, Anthony Curtis, Titaniumman, etc.etc......the list goes on. These people on are top of there game and they have taught and influenced me to play a professional level. I hope we can start on a new foot. We can be fair and you can be honest. LTC

Re: No BJ21 membership for me, everybody wins.
Posted by Ed Tice on 23-Oct-2003 11:06:32 (#4968)

Thanks for everybody pointing out the error in my ways!

"I have visited the BJ21 free message board and don't see much activity, nevermind much valuable information."

The archives alone are worth a gold mine. The activity does slow down but when it gets hot it can burn your keyboard. Now arent you being a little bit defensive.

>> I am not being defensive at all. I chose not to buy the product! I am being treated as if I owe BJ21 more of my hard-earned money even though I am already a big Stanford Wong customer and just am not interested in the BJ21 site. I would subscribe to CBJN but I happen to live in Europe, so its not really applicable to me.

"Furthermore the software doesn't work and I have never managed to actually post a message."

Come on now your scraping the bottom of the barrel for negativity!

>> I'm not scraping anything to be negative. I wasn't successful with the trial version of the product. I've managed to post on every other message board where I had an interest. If the trial didn't work, why should I buy the full version?

"I own a number of books by Stanford Wong and, although the content was good, felt a bit uncomfortable with the amount of "plugging" of his other products that I found in the book."

Please the books are considered the foundation of modern card counting!

>> I said that the content was good. I might even say great. I said I feel "uncomfortable" with the plugs. I don't like paying for advertisement. Obviously if I didn't think the books were good, I wouldn't own three of them!

"I have no concerns with opening my wallet for things that I consider valuable as I have purchased quite a few books as well as software (including the very expensive CVData)."

You seem well read so why criticize Wong's works?????

>> I am not criticizing anybody's work. But I do feel comfortable in saying that content and advertisement should be clearly separated. As a former journalist I feel that I am qualified to make this statement. Look in any magzine that has multiple-page ads, they always put a border around it that says "special advertising section". This is so that it is clear what is the content and what is the advertisement. I feel equally uncomfortable with "product placement" in movies (where the manufacturer pays a movie maker to prominently display their product). So you certainly can't say that I'm not consistent in this thinking.

Wow spanish twenty one is a waste of time and getting an edge there well who wants to have to work that hard!

>> Can you say "cover play"? And since the pit bosses don't even know basic strategy for this, I think it might be useful. And I'm willing to pay up to $20 for the information!

I agree and since this is a civil matter who cares your not going to subscribe anyway.

>> Well according to the other posts it is "theft of services," accusing me of a crime. But no crime has been committed nor has any been planned. The reaction here was more paranoid than the pit bosses at the El C. when they see a green chip!

Have at it but rememeber BJ21 does have the right to deny you service and or cancel it.

>> Yes in fact they guarantee me exactly NOTHING in return for my membership. One of the main reasons I wont subscribe. That and I don't do business with anybody who requires "recurring credit card billing." No thanks. Bill me once and let me subscribe again if I think the product is good enough.

"Or would you find that objectionable?"

Like I said who cares. There are probably others who are doing the same thing. Especially the casino's

>> The only difference is that the others are dishonest about it.

>> I have been presented with no contract between myself an BJ21. I read the publically available information on their web site and it says nothing about prohibition of sharing. I realize that the owners might not like this and I didn't set out to upset anybody, just to obtain information. As you said, I'm not going to subscribe anyway, so they don't lose in this deal.

"Although I respect the opinions of everybody who attacked me, I feel as if somebody were looking to pick a fight without really having all of the facts."

"Ed "

>> I always try to be honest and fair. The fact of the matter is, I'm still interested in the one piece of information that I mentioned above and I'm willing to pay up to $20 for it. If anybody has a suggestion how this transaction can be worked such that everybody is comfortable, tell me where to send the check and its in the mail.

Re: No BJ21 membership for me, everybody wins.
Posted by Learning to count on 23-Oct-2003 11:44:39 (#4971)

Ed I can think of a number of things to do than use spanish 21 as cover play.

Re: No BJ21 membership for me, everybody wins.
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Oct-2003 10:57:35 (#4966)

FYI, I joined Green Chip, a full membership, so that I could have a privledge that lasted a single day. The $12.50 was worth it.

Thanks for your response.

--Mayor

BJ21 Membership
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 23-Oct-2003 11:06:11 (#4967)

I agree Mayor. As LTC points out, join for the first quarter, rape the archives for everything you can, hang out and listen to the chatter and see if another quarter is in order. If not, pull the plug.

http://bj21.com/ads/green1.html

Re: No BJ21 membership for me, everybody wins.
Posted by Ed Tice on 23-Oct-2003 11:10:33 (#4969)

If you look at my post above, I don't want to hand over my credit card information when it involes 'recurring billing.' Also after the response I got from the BJ21 people, I am not sure I want to enter a business relationship at all. According to their web site, one can join and get a refund withing 10 days. So if I had really wanted to "rape the archives", I could have joined, downloaded the whole site and cancelled. Instead, I took an opportunity to obtain the information in a way which they would receive some compensation. I have also posted what information I wanted to obtain and I continue to be willing to pay for that information as long as the payment terms are ones I feel comfortable with. So I would like to know how anybody has benefited from attacking me. I still don't know what I want to know and nobody got any money. I must be missing something here since it seems that everybody is harmed. My offer stands that I'm willing to pay $20 for the particular information that interested me. But I'm not willing to hand over my credit card # for recurring billing. I'll gladly pay up to that amount by check or one-time credit-card processing.

Re: No BJ21 membership for me, everybody wins.
Posted by Learning to count on 23-Oct-2003 11:42:45 (#4970)

Ed a quarter subscription is $12.50. This $7.50 cheaper than you are willing to pay ie. $20.00. Subscribe!

Mr Tice, you have mail
Posted by Al Rogers on 23-Oct-2003 11:53:53 (#4972)

I'll gladly pay up to that amount by check or one-time credit-card processing.

Offer accepted. I sent you an email to that effect.

Al Rogers
BJ21.com

Al@bj21.com

Re: No BJ21 membership for me, everybody wins.
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 23-Oct-2003 12:04:30 (#4973)

I don't like their billing method either. I'm sure it works for the die hard fans at BJ21 and that is why it is set up for them that way. All I see is you looking for SF21 info, which is available here, and at BJF if I am not mistaken. I believe the Mayor himself authored these articles.

Rob

Who wrote SF21 stuff...
Posted by The Mayor on 23-Oct-2003 12:17:54 (#4974)

The best SF21 is not in print, anywhere.

Orange County KO (OCKO) wrote the first article on SF-21, which won POM, and is in the GC archives at bj21.com.

LVBear wrote some subsequent materials on the game, and has commented on it at length, being perhaps the premier expert in the world on this game. However, in personal conversations I have had with LVBear, he has acknowledged that there are "errors" in some of the published information.

OCKO's article hurt SF-21 for a period of time, but then it came back. But now, SF-21 is dying for another reason. Casinos have realized they don't need to give anything back in exchange for reduced payoffs on BJ, hence 6/5 "Single Deck 21".

--Mayor

Re: Who wrote SF21 stuff...
Posted by Learning to count on 23-Oct-2003 12:41:44 (#4975)

I'm sorry but Mr. Tice was referring to spanish fun 21 not super fun21. Super fun 21 can be a lucrative game of sorts. The strategy is very difficult. Hell I will sell you the info for $18.00 lus shipping of course. Thsi is getting as good as e-bay! Spanish 21 sucks as a game!

Billing method?
Posted by Al Rogers on 23-Oct-2003 16:04:47 (#4977)

Apologies to our friends at cc.com for continuing this thread, which has nothing to do with casino games.

Mr. McGarvey said:

I don't like their billing method either.

BJ21.com has several different billing methods, and are very customer-friendly when it comes to tailoring situations to meet specific needs.

We'd appreciate knowing which "billing method" don't you like and why. If there are changes that you think should be made, or new ideas, please tell us.

Thank you.

Al Rogers
BJ21.com

Al@bj21.com

Re: Billing method?
Posted by Learning to count on 23-Oct-2003 16:49:45 (#4981)

AL please exuse Rob he tends to be mischevious at times. Your billing techniques are the norm for any site be it e-bay or even purchasing the book aces and faces!

Re: Billing method?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 24-Oct-2003 09:31:35 (#4994)

"AL please exuse Rob he tends to be mischevious at times."

ME? Okay, I can live with that...

"Your billing techniques are the norm for any site be it e-bay or even purchasing the book aces and faces!"

WHA? I use PayPal, which never bills you every month for buying my book. I also take checks, MO's, and cash, just like AL does. I'm all sold out now, and am having the book updated at the printers. I will add NETeller to the payment methods for Aces and Faces, and Billion Dollar Blackjack.

Re: Billing method?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 24-Oct-2003 09:17:13 (#4993)

I meant your CC billing process where you have to cancel it to stop getting GC, instead of requiring you to renew etc. Most bills come, then you get to say yay or nay to them, and that is the way I prefer things. I see you can also send a check. You guys should hook up to NETeller. I'd fire you a payment for a GC just to see what all the fuss is about! smile I trust that you would cancel if someone called, that is not the question. In a busy world most players don't have time to stop playing to call and cancel and get billed for things they often don't get to use. Like the weekend newspaper....

Misconception
Posted by Al Rogers on 24-Oct-2003 12:12:25 (#5003)

I meant your CC billing process where you have to cancel it to stop getting GC, instead of requiring you to renew etc.

Automatic renewal is not <u>mandatory.</u> It is a customer convenience that is used and appreciated by about 99% of our customers.

You can order Green Chip for three months at a time without automatic renewal. All you have to do is write "No automatic renewal" in the Special Instructions of our order form. The membership will automatically expire at the end of the three months.

Al Rogers
bj21.com

Al@bj21.com

Re: Misconception
Posted by Learning to count on 24-Oct-2003 13:19:04 (#5006)

Sometimes a person has to push thier point into oblivian before ignorance can be revealed. But that is what good humored debate is about. Like I said before BJ21 has common simple billing procedures that even a canadien can understand!
>; )

Thanks LTC
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 24-Oct-2003 13:30:40 (#5009)

You make me wonder why I even bother posting. ;>

Re: Thanks LTC
Posted by Learning to count on 24-Oct-2003 15:50:25 (#5020)

Hey Rob you know i'm teasing you! You should live stateside Rob I mean your an intelligent person and very successful so why do you live in canuck land anyway?? : )

OH CANADA!
Posted by Sonny on 24-Oct-2003 17:57:58 (#5025)

> Hey Rob you know i'm teasing you! You should live stateside Rob I mean your
> an intelligent person and very successful so why do you live in canuck land
> anyway?? : )

Didn't you see "Bowling for Columbine?" That should answer all of your questions about US vs. CAN! It almost makes ME want to "Take Off" for the Great White North!

Re: Thanks LTC
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 27-Oct-2003 14:33:35 (#5059)

Nothing like converting USD into Canadian eh? Winnings are not taxable, so it is the best place in the world for an AP to live. I love the small town American folk I have come across in my travels. Heck y'all are just like us up here cept for a border that we can both cross without gettin blowed up. We have a better reputation world wide for some reason tho. I wonder why? Ain't nothin I ever did ta deserve it let me tell ya. Probably ain't nothin you ever did ta deserve it neither. And I got lots a guns too, so don't let that bowling program fool ya. I can pick an apple off a tree at 400m with an unmodified M17 30-06 with a 9x scope, and can blow 7 big holes into a pumpkin at 20m with my '43 Colt 45ACP.

BJ21.com Has Always Refunded My Money After Cancelling
Posted by SammyBoy on 24-Oct-2003 13:29:11 (#5008)

I have joined and cancelled more than once. Each time they refunded my money with no questions after my CC was charged for the next quarter. CBJN is awesome, but since I'm not able to play as much as I did earlier in the year I no longer have a sub. After all this talk though, I just may sign up for Green Chip again.

Statistically, your sample size is smaller than it should be. *NM*
Posted by zshell on 22-Oct-2003 11:35:07 (#4936)

markers
Posted by Victoria on 22-Oct-2003 18:21:53 (#4942)

We had a discussion about players cards and the fear of them. I use one in the casino I frequent most often. I also have a credit line there so they ha

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