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Threads 391 to 420

Card Counting Dealer? Well Almost
Posted by SammyBoy on 04-Feb-2003 15:39:06 (#2966)

I had an experience in one of my last casino visits that really surprised me. It was a single deck game and the dealer was counting all of the face cards as they would come out and recommending to players to hit or stand based on the number of face cards left in the deck. I couldn't believe it! I was under the impression that the casinos were deathly afraid of counters and had all employees on the lookout for evil counters. If this were the case, surely this dealer would not be "counting" cards. And no this was not a disgruntled employee that didn't care. He was very strict as far as making sure all players were following the rules. What's up with this?

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Re: Card Counting Dealer? Well Almost
Posted by phantom007 on 04-Feb-2003 15:53:13 (#2969)

HE WANTED TIPS! Thank you for sharing. What is his name? Where does he work? What is his shift?

Tell me, please!

phantom007.

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Arnold Snyder Is Back
Posted by Bob Turner on 04-Feb-2003 18:30:16 (#2971)

The bishop has started a new blackjack forum at: www.huntingtonpress.com

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Re: Arnold Snyder Is Back
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 04-Feb-2003 20:56:24 (#2974)

try http://www.bjfonline.com/ that will take you to the right front page.

Message from Arnold Snyder:
Since Huntington Press took over the publication of Blackjack Forum, Anthony Curtis has been pleading with me to start up a blackjack web page. For eight months, I have been telling him, “No way.” My personal experience with these sites is that they have more negative aspects to them than positive. They are often overrun with egomaniacs who just like to see their web handles in print. There are nut cases trying to sell idiotic gambling systems to the gullible. There are casino surveillance spies trying to pry information from naïve players. And I have neither the time nor inclination to deal with it all. Other than writing, I’m retired. I’ve also become very cranky in my old age. I like to say what I really think, and I don’t care much about stepping on people’s toes.

Anthony wouldn’t let the issue die. The long version of my final response to Curtis went something like this:

“Anthony, I do not believe you really want me on a web site. I tend to get sarcastic and not everyone appreciates my sense of humor. Furthermore, I hate the Internet. I NEVER surf the web, and I have virtually no talent with computers. I often go weeks without even looking at my email. So, if you want me on the web, here’s the deal: You have your tech crew set up the blackjack website, the whole thing. I’m not going to do any advertising or promotion. I’m not going to bust anyone’s post because they used a four-letter word. And if I use a four-letter word, your web crew damn well better not bust my post. I can say whatever I want. And most important of all, the message board will be monitored seven days a week by professional players, not computer geeks or self-styled blowhard experts. I will hand-pick a group of pros who can answer questions intelligently, and who will have the authority to throw out any casino spies who are just there to make trouble. Also, this blackjack message board will also be FREE OF CHARGE, open to the public at large. On top of that, the LVA tech crew will put a Blackjack Forum Library online, also FREE of charge, with articles from past issues of the magazine, so that hundreds of questions can be answered for players without their even having to ask. And you’ll pay me a lot of money just for showing up once in a while.”

Anthony agreed to everything except the part about paying me a lot of money. Somehow, he convinced me that the LVA “Pocketbook of Values” coupons were worth far more than he could afford to pay me. So, he handed me a coupon book, and here I am.

— Arnold

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I hope it is better than advantageplayer.com
Posted by Alexander Mundy on 05-Feb-2003 21:16:30 (#2978)

There is no blackjack discussion over there. If you are not kissing Don Schlesinger's ass, you rapidly become persona non grata, no matter how asinine and moronic his views are about playing single deck games.

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Re: I hope it is better than advantageplayer.com
Posted by The Mayor on 06-Feb-2003 12:16:03 (#2981)

Please be more specific --

--Mayor

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Re: I hope it is better than advantageplayer.com
Posted by Alexander Mundy on 06-Feb-2003 22:30:09 (#2988)

There was a thread about Don's "never" list. T-Hopper questioned the wisdom of parts of the list - like "never play SD". As usual, Don's fangs came out, his heels dug in, and he blathered like a fool - which I know he is not - that is until you disagree with him. I posted about my SD experience (3,000+ hrs) and used an anecdote about last Fri. night, when I spread red to black at Circus-Reno. Because my experience is unlike his, he questioned the veracity of the post and stated that the people at that website knew that you couldn't last 5 min. in Northern Nevada playing like that. Of course, that's nonsense, just like Don's rule is nonsense. I responded, perhaps a little acerbically, but just as vehement. I might have made (OK I did make) a comment like "since Arnold Snyder is the Bishop, Don could be the Pope, since he thinks he is infallible." Actually, an accurate sentiment. Don started making less sense than Clarke Cant, claiming to know people with 10 million dollar bankrolls (what kind of a bulge would that make in your pocket?) and that those players don't play SD. A non-sequiter, perhaps? Now, Don has done great work in BJ, patiently answers questions, and tirelessly contributes to the knowledge bank of BJ. Until someone offers a different point of view than his. Then he begins frothing at the mouth, blathering incoherently, making impertinent, nonsensical arguments, and dismissing everyone as insignificant, no nothing boobs, as he turns into a meglomanical, self righteous, know it all, lord of all things, grand pooh-bah, holier than thou, almighty master, the alpha and the omega of the blackjack universe. Unless you genuflect, kiss his BJ decoder ring, kiss his ass, and declare yourself unworthy for even hinting that he may be incorrect about something, anything, then you will be banished from kissdonsassdotcom forever and will be deemed unworthy of posting anything. The thread was removed and 2 more posts of mine were not put up - even tho they were about playing in Reno. I have probably played more single deck blackjack in Reno in the last ten years than anybody. I know virtually every square inch of this town. But that doesn't matter. Don has ruled. No one should ever play SD blackjack.

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Don jumps to blue not blacks
Posted by hammer on 07-Feb-2003 08:48:27 (#2991)

blues are 5000 chips,bud.

Don is correct,for serious real action it is not the game.
Don has been playing over 27 years and I would not discount his
information so quickly. He also likes good rules-surrender,stay 17,
etc,Have yu found those yet?

The teams that have made millions not hundreds of thousands play
6 dk,2 dd,of course a little sd now and then is nice.

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Re: Don jumps to blue not blacks
Posted by The Mayor on 07-Feb-2003 10:28:59 (#2993)

If Don is playing at the $5k level, then he should know that his advice (to play like he does) is not appropriate for 99% of all advantage players.

My impression was that Don does not play much, and when he does it is at the Green to low black level. Thank you for correcting this for me.

--Mayor

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Re: Don jumps to blue not blacks
Posted by hammer on 07-Feb-2003 10:49:50 (#2994)

The point being you can jump higher in dd/6dk
compared to sd.Therefore more $$

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Re: Don jumps to blue not blacks
Posted by The Mayor on 07-Feb-2003 11:05:19 (#2995)

Usually one's max bet is the same in 6D and DD and SD, it is the min bet that differs. For example, I play a $150 max bet, in 6D I may play at a $5 table, but in SD I play quarters.

-Mayor

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Thanks
Posted by The Mayor on 07-Feb-2003 10:07:59 (#2992)

I too have a story -- as you may know I am not allowed to post on rge21.com in any fashion, ostensibly because I advised readers to look for reviews of products sold on the site on independent sites. Your's is not the first, and will not be the last account of such treatment there.

--Mayor

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Yet another gross personal attack *NM*
Posted by Norm Wattenberger on 09-Feb-2003 18:20:22 (#3010)

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Re: I hope it is better than advantageplayer.com
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 06-Feb-2003 13:10:36 (#2982)

When AS left their board I was asked to change my link to Arnold Snyder's board to Advan+age Player in my "players" page, which is my linking page. Betty Paige asked me to make the change. I needed to update that page, and still have to do a bit more work on it, but I made the change. As we see things unfolding it does look like there is only so much "super ego" space per board. People seem to be on their best behaviour there and I hope this will continue.

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Question for Rob M.
Posted by CanKen on 05-Feb-2003 19:01:41 (#2977)

You live in Toronto. I've been wondering why there is no casino in this great city? Do you have an answer?

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Re: Question for Rob M.
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 06-Feb-2003 09:25:13 (#2980)

It was made into an election issue a few years ago, yes or no to casino TO. It was a way to takes peoples eyes off the real election issue, and now the city is paying for it. The province forced the city to amalgamate from a batch of smaller cities into a Mega City, and can force a casino here at any time. We do have slots at the Woodbine Raceway, which is within the city, so I find that ridiculous since we all know slots are the biggest rip off in the gaming word. Our old Downsview air force base was a target for one, which would have been spectacular for me because it is 5 min from where I am now. I will be moving to Brampton which will put me closer to the Brantford casino, and I hope to hook up with "DeepNet Dan" to get some type of small scale tracking team going over there. If things work out with that plan we might add him to our single pass shuffle team when and if we go back after that game.

I would like to see on included in our new water front plan, but it looks like they are being too left wing when it suits them, and a total rip off when it suits them.

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Re: Question for Rob M.
Posted by CanKen on 06-Feb-2003 13:20:59 (#2983)

Thanks for the insight.

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Re: Question for Rob M.
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 06-Feb-2003 15:00:50 (#2984)

You live in Toronto?

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Re: Question for Rob M.
Posted by CanKen on 06-Feb-2003 18:39:39 (#2985)

I'm about three hours west of Toronto but I get there from time to time. Windsor is closer, but I understand they have gone to "no midshoe entry", which makes their 8-deck games unappealing. Do any of the Detroit casinos have decent games with reasonable minimums?

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Detroit Casinos
Posted by Wyrstle on 06-Feb-2003 20:52:04 (#2987)

MGM has gone to all 8 deck shoes (and h17 on the lower limit upstairs tables).
Last time I was there the pen was awful with 2 - 2.5 decks cut off. All shufflemasters but no csm. I've never seen anything less than a $10 table there.

Greektown has gone all 8 deck shoes or csm but pen has stayed the same since the change at about 1.5 decks cut off. Occasionally there are $5 limits there, usually on the morning shift (4am - 12 Noon). Otherwise you can usually find $10 at about any other time.

Motor City has become my place to play with all 6 deck shoes (about 4 carnival spin the wheel tables dealt from csm).

2nd Floor, Pit 1 is all hand shuffle. Pit 2 is all shufflemaster.

3rd floor (non smoking) is currently hand shuffle as they are using it for training and refreshing dealer skills so the pit spends more time with their eyes on the dealer than the players. 3rd floor usually open from about 1pm to 3am.

1st floor is all shufflemaster. Pit open Friday through Sunday evenings. Usually open a few tables donstairs early on Sunday at about 4pm with $5 tables and a $5 craps table.

Pen is about 1.5 decks cut off but check the dealers often you can get a deck or less cut. They guarantee $10 BJ 24 hours a day somewhere in the house.

Wyrstle

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Re: Detroit Casinos
Posted by CanKen on 07-Feb-2003 19:12:10 (#3001)

Thanks for the detailed answer. When I get to Detroit I'll head for Motor City.
Since you didn't mention it, I assume they allow midshoe entry?
By the way, what is "carnival spin the wheel"?

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Re: Detroit Casinos
Posted by Wyrstle on 08-Feb-2003 00:43:51 (#3005)

Yes all Detroit Casinos allow mid shoe entry at this time.

I am told that across the river at Casino Windsor (all 8 deck) has just gone to no mid shoe entry. I seldom go there because of border crossing grief in the last year or so.

The spin the wheel game is regular blackjack dealt from csm with a side bet of $1 - $5 that you will get a Blackjack. If you get the natural with the bet up you get to press a button which spins a wheel at the table with odds from 10 to 1000 times your bet. Now if this were still a shoe game I would assume in high enough counts it just might be worth the buck.

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Re: Question for Rob M.
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 10-Feb-2003 08:24:52 (#3014)

CanKen-
Three hours west of Toronto? You may be a reasonable distance from the Blue Chip in Michagan City, Indiana.

6 decks, with better penetration than any Detroit/Windsor market casino. (About 1 deck off).
Much less crowded. Tables are full only at peak times.
Lower minimums. $5 except peak times, and then $10.
Close, clean cheap motels.

I live in Cleveland. Which is 3 hours from Detroit/Windsor. I have no problem driving the extra 2 to 2.5 hours to Indiana for the better game. If you're used to the Detroit/Windsor games, this will be a breath of fresh air for you.

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Re: blue chip
Posted by BradRod on 10-Feb-2003 22:15:52 (#3021)

I have played there and agree with your assessment. I also live in cleveland and am beginnig to find mich games more and more of a nuissance,, i will probably take up your suggestion

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PS
Posted by BradRod on 10-Feb-2003 22:28:06 (#3023)

Felix d G

email me if you like to talk,

BradRod@surfree.com

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Re: "no midshoe entry"
Posted by BradRod on 10-Feb-2003 22:11:48 (#3020)

I played in windsor recently the "no midshoe entry" rule actually made for an interesting game. I did not do so well in the session overall but that was not because of the rule.

Here is what I think,, first choose a table where the dealer gives a decent penetration. I was told the house policy is 2.5 decks cut of. Looks like some dealers do not want to take any chances and lob 3 off of 8D shoe. Some dealers however cut off only 1.5 or even less. These seems like worthwhile games, if the shoe goes positive. This leads to the interestig part about the "no midshoe entry"

Playing during non crowded , that is the non bus crowd, hours.i found some tables with only a few other players..after about a deck if the count had not gone positive i would take my hand out but stay at the table. sometimes if the shoe really went south , the other players would also leave one by one, resulting in an early reshuffle since i could not reeter the game. During early morning hours i had my choice of a few tables to play by myself. there if i did not like the count, i simply pulled b ack and "shuffle ! ". kind of preferntial shuffling but to the players advantage and control.

the vip game is good also when they have $25 tables availble. 6D, hand shuffle, and with conversion rate, the min bet is really equal to about $15 US. same "no midshoe entry" rule b ut, you still have the same back end wonging advantage

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Re: "no midshoe entry" *LINK*
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 10-Feb-2003 23:56:23 (#3025)

I have never back-counted once in my blackjack career, always Wong-out only, simply because I found it close to impossible to do this in the Det/Win casinos, and they are my only consistent places of practice. And now, without the ability to pull the 'ol "That's it... I'm sitting out until the dealer busts" or "Let me sit this one out to mix things up", I just don't think it's worth it. This is a shame too, I really liked Windsor.

A while back I responded to a post you had made about Niagra, in case you're interested. The thread was getting old by the time I posted, so you probably didn't think to check for additions. Here it is:

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Brantford Casino
Posted by V-man on 06-Feb-2003 20:32:01 (#2986)

is a charity casino with $100 max. 8 decks cut 2-3, only a few tables are hand shuffle. I would only play there if my bedroom is on top of the casino :)

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Re: Brantford Casino
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 07-Feb-2003 08:44:38 (#2990)

Be careful what you wish for, it may just come to pass! ;> I used to love the 99 cent breakfast they offered. Two eggs, three strips of bacon, toast with jam, a slice of tommy toe, and fried tatters. That got killed quicker than a one deck game dealt to the bottom would have! Them people out there are aweful hungry, eh? The problem with the set up there is that you can get to the food without going thru the casino.

There are only about 10 tables in the place, five on each side of the "pit." More like a seed than a pit it is so small. An 8 deck game only deserves to be wonged, or tracked, and playing other players hands with ploppies if possible. $100 can make a good flat bet, but cause you so much attention in that part of the country you might as well tatoo a C on your forehead, or CEO. You CAN play all if you track and get the cut. They can cut 4 out of 8 off to make sure you have as much crap burried so deep the frost won't touch it! ;>

Do you see any players that avoid the CSM's? Which ones are CSM's now?

back of room
1 6
2 7
3 8
4 9
V X
as you enter

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request for alienated
Posted by alpha on 06-Feb-2003 01:12:39 (#2979)

alienated, i would like to ask you a private question. do you have a way for me to contact you via email?

thanks.

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Re: request for alienated
Posted by alienated on 07-Feb-2003 19:55:00 (#3002)

alpha, I've got your email. Will get back to you shortly.

I've self-deleted my original response now that it has served it's purpose.

Regards,
alienated

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Interview of Zen Grifter
Posted by Learning to count on 07-Feb-2003 13:40:22 (#2998)

Check out www.casino.com/blackjack...Henry Tamburin's newsletter has an interesting interview with Our own Zen Grifter. Where has the ZG been any way. Probably causing the BJ drop to go short in Nevada! Splitting tens and pissing off ploppies!

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Re: Interview of Zen Grifter
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 08-Feb-2003 08:32:40 (#3007)

Here is the proper link to this article. It looks like he is interviewing himself, or has given LVPro a hat with questions on pieces of paper to ask him. If Micheal Jackson could have been so lucky! ;> A fun read. Can't wait for the next issue.

http://www.casino.com/blackjack/article.asp?id=2074

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Nice Interview, ZG!
Posted by The Mayor on 08-Feb-2003 10:03:06 (#3008)

You are a character-and-a-half!

--Mayor

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Mayor's esquire
Posted by dude on 07-Feb-2003 14:33:22 (#2999)

Mayor, your report to the Nevada Gaming Commission was extremely well written and thorough -- did you hire a lawyer to help you, or did you do it yourself? Please tell us more about this process... has the board responded? Must it respond within a certain time frame?

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Re: Mayor's esquire
Posted by The Mayor on 07-Feb-2003 22:05:27 (#3003)

The response is posted there as well. Llick the link below the post.

It was co-written with 3 of us, though the others have asked to be left unnamed. They wrote the bulk of the rough draft, and I was one who helped edit the final couple of drafts. I put my name on it, because I am willing to be public, and they (being top advantage players) wanted to stay anonymous.

Thanks for noticing the new article.

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Front Man
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 08-Feb-2003 08:02:49 (#3006)

It is very nice of you to protect your fellow counters like that El. That is the usual position that people try to put me in because of my well known moral standards. Still we have to believe in our cause to go forth and take the challenge, simply because the "moral suport" of our peers (if any) will never make the fight worth while. You can end up with egg (or worse) on your face, and your friends, possibly because of guilt or other internal human workings, have left the building during the battle, or afterwards.

I think the view of most legal professionals is that it is just a game of blackjack. Anyone that is that interested in it must be a criminal mastermind and only deserves the protection of a criminal.

I wonder if they will put them on Bacc tables?? ;>

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Mayor, please say thanks to your wife ...
Posted by Soft17 on 07-Feb-2003 16:41:58 (#3000)

... for the excellent article "When Your Partner Counts Cards"! Well written and extremely well covered!!

Soft17.

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Re: Mayor, please say thanks to your wife ...
Posted by The Mayor on 07-Feb-2003 22:06:13 (#3004)

She loves it when she gets positive feedback! I will definitely pass this on!

Thanks for your kindness,

--Mayor

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Learning to survive. Why end it?
Posted by Learning to count on 09-Feb-2003 18:01:58 (#3009)

If you dont get a buyer why not designate others to help. Stanford wong has people helping him. IF I HAD THE MONEY KNOWLEDGE AND TIME I WOULD TAKE IT OVER. Alas I can only help. I know of a lot of player/members that would like to help. If any one out there is interested speak out. I am green chip member and I subscribe to CBJN and Track Jack but I am at home here at CC.COM. Hey ZG your always on and posting how about it. McGarvey you post here ten times a day and you run the cafe. Brad ROd how about you. Eliot I can get both my cousins to help. Ones a comp engineer and the other has e-businesses too. I'm ignorant but I am willing to learn. I have others who would help. Come on people speak up. Lets stick together. Here intellect rules just try and voice an oppinion on the other sites. You get ridiculed and insulted. AT least here we talk about advantage play and not voodoo! Phantom how about you? I have said my peace. Between 6/5, csm's, casino harassment and super duper computer tracking devices and now this SHIT I may just get a third job and quit gambling to make extra cash.

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Re: Learning to survive. Why end it?
Posted by Wyrstle on 09-Feb-2003 20:06:03 (#3011)

I'm far from anything more than a striving advantage player, but I have 30 some years in the computer industry and would gladly help on the technical side of things.

Of all the "free" boards that are available I find cardcounter.com to be the least stressful to visit and it sits on top of my preferred forum list. So count me in on just about any enterprise to keep it available.

Wyrstle

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Re: Learning to survive. Why end it?
Posted by Learning to count on 10-Feb-2003 07:54:17 (#3013)

""Of all the "free" boards that are available I find cardcounter.com to be the least stressful to visit and it sits on top of my preferred forum list. So count me in on just about any enterprise to keep it available.""

Now thats the spirit!

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Re: Learning to survive. Why end it?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 09-Feb-2003 22:00:13 (#3012)

There are three parts to every board. The software, the posters, and the moderators. The posters are only limited by the software and the moderators. The most important part of any board are the posters. If they are truely interested in learning OR teaching, helping out, and are able to work with less than excellent software, less than perfect moderators, stay out of political uprisings, the POSTERS make any board what it will end up being.

In my opinion, it is US, the POSTERS, have made this board what it is at this time. El has opened his doors to allow you to make it everything it has become.

Now, if someone buys this URL, it could be to make $$ with, become a commercial entity, and El will have 2K more in his pocket! ;> I doubt they would have a board, but if they do, YOU can make it everything it can be, or find another spot to call "home."

Learning to survive is also learning about change. I enjoyed studying the I-Ching when I was taking Kung Fu years ago. Change is a big part of life, especially in this day and age. It helped prepare me for some big jumps in my career at work and elseware. I have left many people far behind me just by "watching the market" move from one space to another, while many people resist each change as it presents itself, not looking at it as an opportunity, but as another push from behind towards the cliff that their own inertia has created.

There are many boards, but there is only one of you. Shaolin = Young Tree. Supple. Able to bend, to change. Wrap around everything in your path and continue to grow and welcome this new and ever changing world.

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Re: Learning to survive. Why end it?
Posted by SammyBoy on 10-Feb-2003 13:04:20 (#3015)

Rob,

I agree that the posters play a big part in the success of this webpage, but I don't think it would be where it is today without the effort and hard work the Mayor has put into it.

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Re: Learning to survive. Why end it?
Posted by Learning to count on 10-Feb-2003 13:57:49 (#3016)

Thank you! That is my point we need to stick together!

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. Why end it?
Posted by hammer on 10-Feb-2003 18:11:59 (#3019)

Mayor,
we appreciate all your hard work and effort and we respect you if
feel you need a change. Change is good for everyone,
its just that so many are afraid and then they get stuck in a rut..

first bj21.com-shuts down
then grifter losses his shirt playing bjack
then this site possibly shutting down,
ok, we have to accept that.

thanks again for all.

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New Shirt
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-Feb-2003 12:07:02 (#3026)

Grifter overbet his bankroll AGAIN? And he should know better which makes this worse.

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Legal counting !!
Posted by Imaya on 10-Feb-2003 14:15:51 (#3017)

Hey guys I'm new on this forum and I don't know if you already talk about it. As a semi-proffessinal card counter, I'm TIRED of always have to hide my game. I have been many places in the world and finally find a goldmine....a Government owned Casino which is legal to count. The law is finally on our side...they CANT tell you to keep the same bet all day and they CANT tell you to leave. Basicly, the have to let you to make $$$...the only thing i'm not allowed, is the private rooms. So I don't know if it's the only place in North America...because i'm not usually talking to other card counters...I prefer to keep a "low profile" By the way, the blackjack rules are excellent.

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Re: Legal counting !!
Posted by Learning to count on 10-Feb-2003 17:09:08 (#3018)

""Hey guys I'm new on this forum and I don't know if you already talk about it. As a semi-proffessinal card counter, I'm TIRED of always have to hide my game. I have been many places in the world and finally find a goldmine....a Government owned Casino which is legal to count. The law is finally on our side...they CANT tell you to keep the same bet all day and they CANT tell you to leave. Basicly, the have to let you to make $$$...the only thing i'm not allowed, is the private rooms. So I don't know if it's the only place in North America...because i'm not usually talking to other card counters...I prefer to keep a "low profile" By the way, the blackjack rules are excellent.""

Wow I thought trolling was best left when fishing for Marlin. Great glad you found your casino in heaven. Keep your anonymity casino spies are everywhere. Merry Christmas.

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Shhhhhh!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 10-Feb-2003 22:25:43 (#3022)

We don't want everyone coming up here to live in Canada! giggle

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Re: Shhhhhh!
Posted by Learning to count on 10-Feb-2003 23:34:15 (#3024)

Dont worry we won't. GIGGLE.

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Team USA
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-Feb-2003 12:13:44 (#3027)

Jezz! And I was hoping to form a new team that can't be barred up here in the coooooold country. Was hoping the first poster in this thread would confirm or deny being a Canuck, not taking a poke at y'all.

Co-elite forces on high alert!! We are making as many snow balls as fast as we can for the next war! ;> Someone is going to halvta die for these gas prices, that's all I can tell ya.

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Re: Team USA
Posted by Soft17 on 11-Feb-2003 13:32:42 (#3029)

Dont quite get all the humor. But want to ask - Is it true? If yes, then IMO they undoubtedly are the smartest casino management in the world!

Soft17.

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Re: Team USA
Posted by phantom007 on 11-Feb-2003 20:48:19 (#3039)

What does an Italian call Canada?

"Uppa-u-ass"!

giggle.

Where is this Casino?

phantom007.

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Re: Team USA
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-Feb-2003 21:47:44 (#3041)

Upper Canada was Ontario and Lower Canada was Quebec. Took a while for a 5th grader to understand why something that was north was lower....

Every casino, not just one.

Upper US.....I can handle that. I think we have everything the US has and much more. Playing onLine BJ and making US money is the bomb. None of which is subject to taxes.

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Re: Team USA
Posted by phantom007 on 12-Feb-2003 00:24:06 (#3043)

Not trying to start a Flame War here. Just so happy that my favorite BJ site is back "on-line", that I am posting and answering anything I can, and of course, trying to have some fun in the process.

Seriously, when I saw the message that CC.com was "up for sale", and possibly, out of business, a part of me was lost. Hopefully, the new owners, will run same with HIS skill, knowlege, and integrety.

I have nothing but love for Canada. Would like to move to BC someday, if they ever get decent casinos.

In the Canadian Healthcare System, everything is free, but you may have to wait a while to get it.

In the US Healthcare System, if you hurt your back while trying to outrun the police, you get free care, plus Disability payments, plus immediate care!

If you do not produce in the US, then everything is Free! And immediate!

OOPS! This is not BJ info.

So happy that we have THIS FORUM, AGAIN, to exchange our views.

phantom007.

---

Million Dollar Blackjack Tournament in LV
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-Feb-2003 12:15:25 (#3028)

Million Dollar Blackjack Tournament
Las Vegas Hilton, Las Vegas, NV
Thru April 30, 2003
Call 800-732-7117 for more information

---

Say it is'nt soooooooooooo
Posted by Learning to count on 11-Feb-2003 14:06:32 (#3030)

The grifter took a Hit?????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If your out thier grifter talk to us. Dont fret it was the eveil dark forces of Vegas who got ya. ZG come in from the cold!

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What is your information on this? *NM*
Posted by The Mayor on 11-Feb-2003 14:12:33 (#3031)

---

Re: What is your information on this?
Posted by Learning to count on 11-Feb-2003 18:15:08 (#3033)

Sorry I was being semi sarcastic to Hammer and McGarvey's questioning ZG's absense in previous posts. Zg is out working or playing! He will be back i'm sure. The Zen pages have been lacking.

---

Re: What is your information on this?
Posted by phantom007 on 11-Feb-2003 20:42:10 (#3037)

Just saw ZG this afternoon at the Plasma Center. He was leaving as I was going in...got to work on that bankroll management.

Seriously, I miss ZG's BJ posts, and yes, even a few of his non-BJ posts. I have seen his handle recently on "rge.21". I hope he returns here.

phantom007

---

ZG
Posted by The Mayor on 12-Feb-2003 08:57:14 (#3046)

I may get some information soon, I was contacted by someone who actually knows something, but I am not sure the extent to which I will be able to share this information. I may be asked to keep it confidential. At any rate, rest assured he is not boycotting this site.

--Mayor

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Re: ZG
Posted by Learning to count on 12-Feb-2003 16:31:55 (#3053)

Good whether he likes it or not he is one of the active pro's of this site. Who would Rob have to debate with any way? Just joking! Cant wait to hear the tales!

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Re: ZG
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 12-Feb-2003 19:56:50 (#3055)

I figured he took my advice and was successful at cutting back on the posting and spending more time at what he does best. I've seen this a dozen times where he takes the needle away from you to make you crazy for another hit of Zg! ;>

"A deep blue dream,
Seven whole cc's,
Shoot me on the mark"

Best to him no matter where he is and what he is using to fill his time with.

---

Re: What is your information on this?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-Feb-2003 19:53:42 (#3035)

http://www.cardcounter.com/main.pl?noframes;read=3019

"first bj21.com-shuts down
then grifter losses his shirt playing bjack
then this site possibly shutting down"

???????

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Mindplay 21 Device - Gaming Commision is INSANE!
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 11-Feb-2003 16:32:17 (#3032)

Mayor: I was reading the reply you received to your protest to the Mindplay 21 device.
I hope someone follows up on this, the logic used and interpretation of the law is so absurd
that it has to be challenged.

An amazing double speak and interpretation.

Consider the following from the Nevada Gambling Statues:

It is unlawful for any person at a licensed gaming establishment to use, or possess with the intent to use,
any device to assist:
1. In projecting the outcome of the game.
2. In keeping track of the cards played.

Sounds like a straightforward statement, doesn't it? According to the Gaming Commission, the phrase "any person" actual means "patrons" of the casino, not the casino employees. I would think if they meant patrons, they would have used the word "patrons" or "the public", not "any person". I think the phrase "any person" means just that -- ANY PERSON. For this to not apply to casino employees, as the Commission is trying to run by you, would mean that casino employees are not people.

Consider this phrase from the Statues:

Public confidence and trust can only be maintained by strict regulation of ... distribution of gambling devices and equipment.

(hmmm... notice the use of PUBLIC CONFIDENCE, I wonder why it isn't ANY PERSON's confidence?)

However, according to this same source, the phrase "gambling device" actually means SLOT MACHINE, and so it doesn't apply to the MINDPLAY 21 device.

Using the non-logic they are trying to foist, consider a dealer using a "shiner" device to help peek at the top card in order to assist him in dealing seconds. Is the use of this "shiner" illegal?

NO, IT ISN'T! First off, it would be illegal (and is) for a patron to have or use a shiner. But the dealer is a casino employee, so it is perfectly all right for him to have this device to assist in keeping track of the cards played or projecting the outcome of the game. The use of these devices only applies to ‘Any person’ that means patrons -- remember?

How about a craps table using loaded dice? Perfectly all right. Those dice aren't gambling equipment, that only applies to slot machines -- remember?

---

WAR: The Easy Way to Win It
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-Feb-2003 20:36:28 (#3036)

I'm not following this closely, but I would think the inventors of this device had their lawyers involved. It looks to me like it keeps track of the bets as well as the cards, but does not change the outcome of the game in any way. What they do with this information is another story. I work with very complex legal documents and I see people walking through loop holes every day.

Now, to attack head on is not the way. First it will depleat your bankroll. This is a true waste of energy. Firing letters at it will do nothing. The way to destroy MP21 is to abandon it, avoid it, and let it pass on like Becky Binions Horseshoe. If anything, spend your money telling people how it helps the casino cheat players, like we should be telling same about the CSM's. Good old fashioned semi fact based propaganda. Similar to what you will see from them about onLine gaming.

BLACKJACK PLAYERS BEWARE!

Have you ever seen blackjack dealt by a machine? Maybe your local casino is riping you off! These machines are designed to separate the cards to keep you from getting blackjacks! It takes the casino eight times less time to empty your pockets when they use these machines to deal to you with! Don't be stupid and play at these tables. Find a casino that does not deal from a machine!

MINDPLAY 21 DEVICE!

Some casinos don't let you know that they are playing with your mind when you play blackjack. These new machines designed from military technology keeps track of EVERYTHING that happens on the table. At lighting speed it calculates information that is sent to security personel. Your rights are being infringed on. You could make a large bet at the wrong time and be kicked out of the casino. They will question you or tell you can't play blackjack, or force you off the property calling you a counter or a table tracker.

Find a casino that does not play with your mind!

They are recording your face and adding it to a databank. Your name and licences plate #, credit rating, and your SS# all recorded. A computer can identify you in a second and you can be questioned for things that someone else may have done.

While you are on vacation you are being WATCHED!!

WELCOME TO THE NEW LAS VEGAS

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Re: WAR: The Easy Way to Win It
Posted by Learning to count on 11-Feb-2003 20:46:18 (#3038)

Excellent point Rob. Education is always a strong attack. Your right we have to get the message out. This is what this and other such sites are about educating everyone. Mindplay 21 is an obvious con job, a wolf in sheeps clothing. A co- counter friend in Vegas has an info paper that he passes out to ploppies about the evils of SF21,6/5 bj payouts, etc. I am carrying this as well and I have made copies. Get the word out!!!!!

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Re: WAR: The Easy Way to Win It
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-Feb-2003 21:51:17 (#3042)

Scan it and I can make it more than public. Anyone can link to it if we scan it.

---

stop csm
Posted by hammer on 12-Feb-2003 23:22:36 (#3057)

the pure crap of all evil...print out a sheet on that..

as famous Canadian singer Neil Young says,"I've seen the needle
and the damage done".

---

Re: stop csm
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 13-Feb-2003 09:15:20 (#3061)

"I've seen CSM's and damage done
They take a little bit from everyone
Ouuuuuuuuuuu, ouuuuuuuuuu, the damage done"

Now where's my gee-tarr? ;> I prefer to play Cinamon Girl or

"Old man take a look at my life I'ma lot like you
Need someone ta love me the whole day thru
Just one look in my eyes and you can tell that's true"

"A Southern man don't need him around anyhow
Sweet home Alabama...."

Now that's a real twanger!

D C G fur if ya justartinta learn

---

Stupid question...
Posted by Cyrano on 12-Feb-2003 06:39:56 (#3044)

What is this device everybody is referring to? I tried to search for it on 4 different search engines and came up with nothing. Can someone provide a link or something that tells me more and preferably a picture? Thanks.

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Re: good question...
Posted by Learning to count on 12-Feb-2003 07:05:47 (#3045)

Go to home page and scroll down to new items. The first item contains the lettersinvolved in this issue.

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Thanks for your thoughts
Posted by The Mayor on 12-Feb-2003 08:58:53 (#3047)

We are in the process of drafting a response to their response in which we make some of the points you mentioned.

They are crazy. Here are guys in charge of making sure the casinos following the state gaming laws and they don't know the difference between "any person" and "any patron". Pure insanity.

--Mayor

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Re: Thanks for your thoughts
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 12-Feb-2003 09:48:46 (#3049)

You will actually be helping them out IMO unless you are taking them to court right off.

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Re: Thanks for your thoughts
Posted by ivy kid on 13-Feb-2003 01:57:19 (#3058)

It sounds like the gaming commission is pretty steadfast about allowing the Mindplay computer - I would not write another letter to the commission.

Your first written complaint was thorough and well thought out. The commission reponded to your claims in what you believe was an insufficient and perhaps circumventive (it's a word now) letter. I think the next course of action, if you choose to take one, would be to seek a professional assesment of the situation and show the commission's written statement to a lawyer. Rob M. might be right - writing the commission again would give it a chance to amend its general (and perhaps faulty) reasoning and maintain its claim that Mindplay can be used. I say this: i

f you are convinced the commission has erred, make it stick to its original response. A consultation with a lawyer shouldn't be prohibitively expensive.

---

Don't forget 'gambling devices'
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 12-Feb-2003 09:55:23 (#3050)

'gambling device' specifically means 'slot machine' according to the letter.

SO loaded dice, marked cards, etc. are okay, they aren't gambling devices since they aren't slot machines, and none of the crooked gambling device rules apply.

---

Mayor: Law school graduate trying to help
Posted by Skug on 13-Feb-2003 16:07:00 (#3067)

As a magna cum laude graduate of a ranked law school, I went to the law library to research the issue of whether "person" in NRS 465.075 includes only casino patrons and not casino employees or the casinos themselves.

First, I checked to see whether Chapter 465 explicitly defines "person", which it does not. I then checked to see whether any courts have construed NRS 465.075 as applying only to casino patrons, i.e., whether any courts have construed "person" in NRS 465.075 as including only casino patrons. As of the 2001, no court (state or federal) had construed NRS 465.075, except for a Nevada Supreme Court decision finding the term "device" is not unconstitutionally vague. See Sheriff, Clark County v. Anderson, 746 P.2d 643 (Nev. 1987). It's important to note that Nevada's courts, not its Gaming Control Board, decide the meaning of a statute, i.e., what the legislature intended.

I then checked to see whether the Nevada statutes provide any overarching definitions, i.e., those which apply to all Nevada statutes, as most state statutes do. To my delight, I found NRS 0.039, which states the following:

"Except as otherwise expressly provided in a particular statute or required by the context, 'person' means a natural person, any form of business or social organization and any other nongovernmental legal entity including, but not limited to, a corporation, partnership, association, trust or unincorporated organization."

See NRS 0.039 (2001) <http://www.leg.state.nv.us/NRS/NRS-000.html>. Since "person" includes business organizations, such as casinos, and since NRS.075 (the "particular statute") does not define "person", the only question is whether "the context" of NRS 465.075 requires (a strong word) a different meaning of "person".

Playing devil's advocate, one could argue the context requires a different meaning of "person" because the phrase "at a licensed gaming establishment" immediately follows "person" in NRS 465.075, especially since NRS 465.070, which also proscribes forms of cheating, doesn't contain the limiting phrase.

However, a more sensible interpretation of the limiting phrase is that the legislature did not intend the statute to apply to sports bettors using home computers to project the outcome of games, i.e., the limiting phrase limits the conduct, not the persons, subject to the statute. Even more persuasive is the argument that if the legislature had intended "person" not to include casino employees or the casinos, the legislature would have explicitly exempted them from NRS 465.075, as was done by the legislature in NRS 465.080(4), which states the following:

"It is unlawful for any person, not a duly authorized employee of a licensee acting in furtherance of his employment within an establishment, to have on his person or in his possession on or off the premises of any licensed gaming establishment any key or device known to have been designed for the purpose of and suitable for opening, entering or affecting the operation of any gambling game, cashless wagering system or drop box, or any electronic or mechanical device connected thereto, or for removing money or other contents therefrom."

Lastly, as a practical matter, the Gaming Board responds that a casino could manually track cards and reshuffle even without the device. We too can manually track cards and vary our bets and play accordingly. However, if we use a computer to track cards, we are felons, like the gambler in Sheriff v. Anderson.

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Re: Mayor: Law school graduate trying to help
Posted by ivy kid on 13-Feb-2003 21:01:47 (#3079)

Good research... thanks. You charging Mayor by the hour?;)

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agreed 100% *NM*
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 13-Feb-2003 05:53:37 (#3059)

---

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Congratz Mayor
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 11-Feb-2003 19:50:56 (#3034)

All the best to the new "team" that will be running this board. From the Brent Hull article:

"Hull and his colleagues reject the idea that winning big requires big egos. Their system, they believe, works best when everyone works together."

---

THANKS!
Posted by phantom007 on 11-Feb-2003 20:55:26 (#3040)

Thanks for finding a way to keep BJ's BEST site open! I feared it was closed for good, then what was I to do with my spare time? Now, if I could get 1000 units, my life would be whole.

phantom007.

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Congratulations!
Posted by The Big Cowboy on 12-Feb-2003 13:55:10 (#3051)

Thanks Mr. Mayor. I feared as others did that this web site would go the way of a good single deck game on the strip. I enjoy the helpfulness of others on this website and find the responses quite helpful and nonjudgmental. Looking forward to using this message board more in the future and more pronouncements from the Mayor.

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By the way...
Posted by The Mayor on 12-Feb-2003 09:13:15 (#3048)

If you want to get here immediately, and not get the 11 second start-up page, just type in:

www.cardcounter.com/fred.html

--Mayor

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anyone going to Vegas
Posted by hammer on 12-Feb-2003 15:05:55 (#3052)

next week.
let me know..
nice special $30 a night including two dinner meals..and spa pass.
just have to make some cash too,hey you mean us good players can
actually lose-no way really??I need proof>

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Re: anyone going to Vegas
Posted by phantom007 on 13-Feb-2003 11:34:08 (#3063)

Feb. 21st-28th. Let me know how to reach you, if you are going to be there in the same time frame.

phantom007.

---

P--
Posted by hammer on 13-Feb-2003 18:02:40 (#3068)

Kindly forward info to my email address-
dragonsago@yahoo.com
thanks.

Sounds good Iam leaving a few days before you. Vegas will
be crazy the next few weeks with the magic show and nascar though.
I guess its cold and rainy and 58%,hopefully it will warm up
in the maoney area....

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Re: P--
Posted by phantom007 on 13-Feb-2003 18:47:44 (#3069)

Sent message to your e-mail address. Please post here if you do not get same.

Hey, LTC, and anyone else (except of course Casino people)...please post here, and/or e-mail Hammer, and/or me (Richard0518@aol.com), if you want to have a strategy meeting, tell jokes/lies, etc., during above-noted time-frame.

Hey, Casino people, as long as you are "hole-card flashers", welcome too!

Hey, I am learning to speak Canadian, "ya know"!

phantom007.

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BE careful!
Posted by Learning to count on 13-Feb-2003 19:30:23 (#3072)

Maybe I am just paranoid but putting your e-mail out is not good especially if the casinos are spying. I frimly believe that they will do anything to collect info on us. So if you have an e-mail think about your profile info and what you have put in it. I think what we need is a way to start an inner circle of counters much like the green chip community which if you are a serious counter you should belong to any way. I have made many inroads in meeting other professionals and like anything else you have to circulate and build up trust. I advised/suggested to the managers of this sight about a way to bring trusted advocates into the fold as you are suggesting. In time I guess. Thanks for the offer and I wish I could be in vegas too! Remember to let us know about your trip. LTC

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Agreed
Posted by Cyrano on 13-Feb-2003 19:56:39 (#3074)

-NEVER- post your AOL account (or any other accounts that may have your personal info). Make a Hotmail or Yahoo account.

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Re: BE careful!
Posted by phantom007 on 13-Feb-2003 20:10:20 (#3075)

Agree. But have no other easy way to accomplish same goals. Besides, have only gave my e-mail address to one casino, and if they wish to spend the $ to ferret me out, let them! Besides, if they ask me my name, I simply say, "Dr. Eliott Jacobsen" (?sp?)...Psychologist. I doubt my "red/green" action will change any propertiies' quarterly financials.

Yes, my "Profile" on this site narrows me down to a couple hundred people, but what the "heh"! Sounding Canadian again!

LTC, you must realize that living in the Midwest, as an AP/CC, I live in an "intellectual void". I have to put up with the weekly reports of a secretary whose husband is a "Professional Slot Player"...$30,000./year profit for the last 3 years. His system? Spending 8-10 hours watching literally a hundred others play the machines, then "moving in on those that are overdue". I have tried to convince her that this is a fluke, that HE is JUST LUCKY! Unfortunately, the $30,000. per year in their coffers refutes my argument. Or the Nurse, who knows my hobby, stating that: "Big deal, you can play at a 6% advantage, 12% of the time...you are still going to lose long-term."

I wish said Nurse would tell me where I can get these rules!

Anyhow, LTC, if your schedule changes, hope you can join me/us in LV!

phantom007.

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Re: BE careful!
Posted by Learning to count on 13-Feb-2003 20:58:43 (#3078)

Listen I hope you take money away from the casino. I love it when At the end of a successful trip at the last hour at the last shoe I announce to the pit "whew what a vacation, I dropped a couple a grand but hell thats gambling...can I change these chips? Sure sir! Then I dump two grand in green and black on the table. "coloring up two thousand". The PC looks on. I look up and say LOUD: " Hey it may be two grand but I ma still down two"! "Hey how about a comp for the steak house????

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Re: BE careful!--maybe
Posted by hammer on 13-Feb-2003 20:31:31 (#3076)

But how would they know how good we really are anyways. Plus
who the hell
would actually put an email in there real name.

If those critters are that worried they do not belong
in a job like that then.

---

Touchee and ditto...f**K em *NM*
Posted by Learning to count on 13-Feb-2003 20:52:46 (#3077)

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Re: BE careful!
Posted by EyeSpy on 24-Feb-2003 22:09:01 (#3229)

I don't know what all the fuss is about; I think some people on this board are being paranoid. I mean get real, I work in surveillance, I can count just like the rest of you, I don’t need a computer to tell me you are counting, I don’t need your email address to figure that out. I just want to watch your play. If you consistently go with the count you’re a counter, throw all that mumbo jumbo play and your wasting your %. Play like you have some….. See you from the sky.

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Re: anyone going to Vegas
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 13-Feb-2003 21:57:37 (#3082)

Got two free nights waiting for me but no desire to part with GAS money for the plane ride. Or spending four hours of my life in a flying sardine can full of hopefulls, and another 4 with I shouldastayedhome written on their nasty faces. I may come down in April with the wife n kids and hope they like the place so much that they will want to move there.

---

rob
Posted by hammer on 13-Feb-2003 22:50:07 (#3083)

Now your talking. Would be a decent move,you can buy a nice pad
in Henderson 2200 sq ft, around 150k,U.S, NO GST.

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Re: rob
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 14-Feb-2003 08:54:57 (#3089)

I was going to rent a condo for a month a few years back for less than it cost to live up here. But that was when I was young and foolish, longing for a 1-2% advantage. ;> Now I'm 40 and foolish....

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Re: anyone going to Vegas
Posted by Count Luckula on 14-Feb-2003 08:04:32 (#3087)

Also heading to Vegas in 2 weeks! I can be reached at count_luckula@hotmail.com prior to the trip. I have thought about getting CBJN, but I am concerned that using a credit card to buy it would identify me and that info could be used to indentify me at the BJ table. Should I be worried about this? Is it better to show up in person and buy it? I know that it is run by Standford Wong, but after hearing so many stories and about paranoia with the internet, I am concerned. I am not sure what to do? Thanks for the help in advance.

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Re: anyone going to Vegas
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 14-Feb-2003 08:51:47 (#3088)

Take a look at recent posts and figure where you think the best game is. Go and check them out yourself. They will often tell you that casino X DD is only giving 50% pene and you just happen by and see a young asian dealer firing cards to some very happy low limit players down into to 75% range.

I would think that NO ONE will tell you were the ultimate game in town is no matter what you buy or how much you pay for it. There's nothing like finding your own deer man. Do a little tracking. Vegas is a rather small place, esp downtown. You know what you are looking for. Penetration, and good rules.

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Re: anyone going to Vegas
Posted by phantom007 on 14-Feb-2003 11:31:58 (#3093)

I would think that using a Credit Card to buy CBJN at bj21 would be reasonably safe. I had thought about actually visiting their store when I am in LV, but I wonder if the survelience van will be parked down the street, taking down my picture and car license #?

Good Cards Count! And Good Credit Cards.

phantom007.

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Re: anyone going to Vegas
Posted by Learning to count on 14-Feb-2003 22:26:07 (#3095)

Paranoia....I have from a good source and mentor that using a credit card to order any thing from BJ21.com is 99.9999% secure. Nothing is perfect. If there was a security problem at BJ21 the word would be out in minutes upon discovery. AP's are notorious gossips and communicators. Oh and to shed some light on the AP community versus the casino survelliance/spy ring. They the casinos have better things to do instead of watching red chippers and sorry to say green chippers win or lose. If you are betting Black or better; ya better watch out! So go to vegas and have a great time. Take some money away from the casino. ce la vie, ce la guerre, ce l'amor.

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Re: Recon trip for new counter
Posted by NewbieCC on 15-Feb-2003 11:52:54 (#3100)

I'm going next week for reasons unrelated to advantage play. I will have a day and a half of R&R time with my girl and would like to scope out some good places that are comfortable to play for a learning counter. At this point, I do not yet have the BR or the skilz to lay down action, but I would like to do some recon. What would you folks suggest? Thanks!

NewbieCC

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Re: Recon trip for new counter
Posted by The Mayor on 15-Feb-2003 18:06:04 (#3101)

No idea. Just walk through as many places as you like, and enjoy yourself!

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Re: Recon trip for new counter
Posted by Learning to count on 15-Feb-2003 18:18:51 (#3105)

Just a thought do you even know basic strategy...I would just go and be romantic with the ball and chain. Take her to the top of the stratosphere for lunch. Be sure to make reservations. GO up to red rock canyon and do some light hiking may be you both can find some privacy out there! Watch the light and water show at bellagio or the pirate show at Treasure Island. If you can scrounge up the money how about a helocopter ride over the strip. As far as scouting games do you know what a constitutes a good game? Penetration! I dont mean what will occur up in red rock canyon either. Keep practicing remember Basic strategy until you can sing it. Did I just see a sailfish swipe at the bait???

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Re: Recon trip for new counter
Posted by NewbieCC on 15-Feb-2003 23:55:13 (#3112)

LTC wrote: "Just a thought do you even know basic strategy..."

Yep, I've got it down pretty well. When playing on the computer I make 1 mistake an hour or less. Every once in a long while, I do need to pause and think about one of the less frequent plays, though. Room for improvement, for sure, but I am getting there. I can count down a deck in 30-35 sec pretty reliably, and when I am hot, I get down below my 25 sec target. I am comfortable with counting (Hi-Low) playing on the computer, but I am going to have to ease into the casino play. As I mentioned, I also have a severely limited Bank Roll. I have been playing on-line a bit over the past few months to build it up to the point where I can hit the casinos.

LTC wrote: "I would just go and be romantic with the ball and chain."

That is the plan, primarily. I would like to start to get an understanding of the lay of the land out there. I have been to Vegas once before on business, but that was before I began my study of the game.

LTC wrote: "Keep practicing remember Basic strategy until you can sing it."

Will do. And my counting, and working down my reading list. I am half way through Don S's Blackjack Attack. Good stuff! I am a nerd and like that practical but theory heavy stuff.

LTC wrote: "Did I just see a sailfish swipe at the bait???"

Sorry, I don't get the reference.

Thanks for your help, LTC, Mayor and Rob M. I'm looking forward to my trip.

NewbieCC

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Re: Recon trip for new counter
Posted by Learning to count on 16-Feb-2003 16:49:15 (#3121)

Excuse my statement. I thought you may be trolling. You seem to be starting on the right foot. I firmly believe that a counter must have hard skills: BS down pat, count a deck under 15 seconds; able to utilized indices without thinking; leap tall buildings with a single bound.... All kidding aside keep hitting it you will only get better. JUst learn BS better than how you can count down a deck. Some say the math is not important. I think this is wrong. If you are to become deadly in counting then you have to be able to use the math to figure out ROR, EV, BR's,strike numbers, etc etc. There are some great programs that do this but you have to understand what the results mean thus you have to know some of the math. I am still learning. LTC

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Re: Recon trip for new counter *LINK*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 15-Feb-2003 19:39:56 (#3107)

Check this page. Some info is old, but it is a good start.

http://www.skister.com/bj/

Mayor: This side bet still running??

Fiesta Jan 2002
-.01% Single deck DOA, H17, DAS, 60-70% pen
-.38% Double deck DOA, H17, DAS, 50% pen, no heat for 1-6 spread

####15:1 Blackjack side bet on the first hand of a deck####

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Good luck, Mr Mayor!
Posted by motheye on 12-Feb-2003 17:49:27 (#3054)

Good luck at grad school (apparently one cannot have too many degrees?!) and thanks for the hard work here. Your posted essays don't get a lot of mention, but I have refered a number of people to them as I think you have explained issues very well, particularly the mythology.

Have fun and make sure you take the summer off!

motheye

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Psychologist Jokes.
Posted by phantom007 on 13-Feb-2003 11:40:43 (#3064)

#1...MD to Psychologist: "I get so tired of dealing with depressed patients...it seems that no matter what you do, they never get any better."

Psychologist replies: "Yeah. Ain't it great!"

#2...Patient walks into Psychologist's office, totally nude, but body covered in Saran Wrap. Psych. says "I can clearly see your F**King Nuts!".

phantom007.

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Good ones!
Posted by The Mayor on 13-Feb-2003 18:48:38 (#3070)

I suppose I am going to have to get use to this!

--Mayor

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Re: Good ones!
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 13-Feb-2003 21:49:17 (#3081)

Wait til you get guys signing on as Abe Normal ;>

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Don't you just love it when...
Posted by Coug It on 12-Feb-2003 22:04:22 (#3056)

The count goes sky high, you bet table max. (5 x your min.) and the two ploppies seated at the table are dealt 21 on their $3-5 bets... REPEATEDLY.

In another instance, one of them was dealt AA and hit (no, not split), drew a 9 and then hit again (drew a 7, stood and lost). Cards were dealt face down, so no one knew it until the round was over.

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Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to my right ...
Posted by Abraham de Moivre on 13-Feb-2003 09:13:38 (#3060)

Happens about 2 times per week to me.

$5 blackjack to my right, $5 blackjack to my left, everyone else is pleased with their $5 20s, except for me.
I'm looking at the dealer's 10 up card, my $200 dollar bet, and the lovely 16 I have been dealt.

Sometimes the blackjack gods mix it up, and they just give 1 player a $5 blackjack, everyone else a 20, and I get a 14 or 15 on my max bet, but the song remains the same, as they say.

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Re: Clowns to the left of me, Jokers to my right .
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 13-Feb-2003 09:27:02 (#3062)

You should get stuck in the middle with me a few times. I swear on a stack of Bibles that I can sit at a table and get BJ after BJ while everyone else around me goes through a drought. I'm sure that there is no voodoo involved here, but these out of the ordinary things happen all of the time. I'm probably so upbeat that I don't realize when I'm not getting my share of BJ's, and probably still squeeeeeeeeeezing by and breaking even.

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That's Why They Call You DA MAN! *NM*
Posted by SammyBoy on 13-Feb-2003 13:38:06 (#3065)

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But all that matters.......
Posted by Wyrstle on 13-Feb-2003 15:22:21 (#3066)

...is what did the dealer have ?

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bait and BARR!
Posted by phantom007 on 13-Feb-2003 19:26:34 (#3071)

I recently read the following accusation: "Certain Casino's, such as TI, offer a few DD tables with decent rules, so as to 'attract' the CC's." With just a few tables to focus on, it is fairly easy for survelience to spot the true AP's. Easy then to get nailed by betting too much, and/or applying trade to 6D non-CSM games.

Along the same lines, until recently, one of the best SD games in LV was at "Slots-A-Fun"...I am seeing now that they have went to 6:5. Last year, when I was there, they practiced what they advertised, i.e., good SD rules...as long as you did not mind playing with 6 others, and as long as you did not mind getting shuffled-up on every time you raised your bet...at least they dealth 2 rounds to 7, as long as you did not raise your bet.

Had they not went 6:5, I had the following strategy for my upcoming trip...bet $25 in neutral and positive counts, and jump my bet to $100. in negative counts, causing a shuffle...thus, I would always be playing an even or better game.

But I always thought that this was wierd, in that I used the same Players Card at "Lots-A-Shuffles", Jerkus-Jerkus, Manmaybegay, Fuxher, Mount-Me-Carlos, as well as "Old-Dyke" in Tunica.

So, TO THE POINT OF THIS POST, is there any truth to this theory, i.e., "Bait and Barr?" Or am I just being paranoid?

No, I am not trying to be paranoid, it is just that they will not stop talking about me!

Know any good Psychologists?

phantom007.

P.S.: SERIOUSLY, is there TRUTH to this rumor, or am I really PARANOID?

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YES! ;> *NM*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 13-Feb-2003 21:47:15 (#3080)

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Re: bait and BARR! *LINK*
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 14-Feb-2003 00:02:48 (#3084)

I pulled $350 with no heat off he Sluts-are-fun 6-deck tables on New years eve of this year. 1 to 8 spread (3$ to green).

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Re: bait and BARR!
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 14-Feb-2003 00:26:53 (#3085)

Within a 45 minute period. I always scram after a high shoe.

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If your asking...
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 14-Feb-2003 06:04:52 (#3086)

...if that's the only reason they offer double deck games, the answer is most certainly no. From what I understand, most of the big fish and whales prefer handheld blackjack games, for more than one reason. Why do you think they have good DD at the Bellagio? To trap a couple 5 or 6 (or even 7) figure players/teams, or to keep the 8, 9, and 10 figure high rollers (who far outnumber the "high-roller" advantage players) happy?

Secondly, recent information I have recieved confirms that a major strip casino has experienced serious inaccuracy from facial recognition technology in identifying players while seated at the tables. TI, of course, uses facial recognition, and is likely experiencing similar technical difficulties.

Surely the oven's gonna be on a bit higher, and more frequently where they are make more bread, which is at the higher limit pitch games. I seriously doubt it's possible to "sweat" these games much more than they have been...oh, you may not always see it, but the eye is ALWAYS intently focused at higher min tables (ESPECIALLY hand-held games due to mucking, etc.), and even more so when there seems to be "no heat" coming from the floor.

Just my non-pitch-playin', non-high-rollin' opinion.

ANS

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You are not paranoid
Posted by The Mayor on 14-Feb-2003 09:49:11 (#3091)

You know you are not paranoid, they really are out to get you.

By the way, what kind of advantage could you get with your strategy at SOF? It seems VERY small, and hardly worth the effort, since effectively your max bet is $25.

--Mayor

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Re: You are not paranoid
Posted by phantom007 on 14-Feb-2003 11:23:19 (#3092)

Yes, I know. SOF advantange now academic, since they are reported to have went 6:5. I would like to think an advantage of 1.67%, based on Carlon's numbers. Realize that I was planning to make a $25. bet at + Counts, and if not for the Shuffle Game, I would be betting $5-$25, i.e., 5:1 spread.

For this upcoming trip, will only have 800 units...plan to start low, and when I win (positive attitude), then parlay up my base bets as my growing bankroll allows.

If I do not stick to this plan, may spend most of the week at the penny slots at Gold Spike. I have read that some of the Beggars and Panhandlers in Downtown LV pull down $400-500. per day.

Hmmmm! Plan C....

phantom007.

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Re: You are not paranoid
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 14-Feb-2003 12:27:20 (#3094)

"I have read that some of the Beggars and Panhandlers in Downtown LV pull down $400-500. per day."

I know a pair of hustlers that score $200 each per day squegin car windows in TO, so I'm sure in a town made of money this is possible. Now you know why Clarke Cant the "dumpster diver" doesn't post or play bj anymore. I hear you can eat lobster tails to your hearts content if you get them while they are still frozen. Ex date +1 doesn't pass the health department regs but sure tastes good on the barbie.

Eat better than a comped meal, beg like a beggar, and either pay for your room or play for a free room with your donations.

"There's no life like it and I won't forget the day
That I chose to live the dumpster way"

Laughing now. I am sitting here eating out of a can of alpa-getti that I opened with a dog tag can opener. I didn't heat it up and I'm eating it with a white plastic spoon. My wallet is empty, it's all in the bank.

I'll always remember my roots...

Hey Mayor. Do you know the right tag for this type of psychosis?

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Backliner optiona at Foxwood?
Posted by JackNero on 13-Feb-2003 19:33:52 (#3073)

What options do a backliner have if a seated player:
1.Surrenders
2.Splits
3.DD's
Thanks in advance//JackNero

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Re: Backliner options at Foxwood?
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 14-Feb-2003 09:15:06 (#3090)

You should try to work that out before you get going. One of the guys I have played with was easy going and we both trusted each others judgement. If I was at first he would be two doors down from me and we would both play the spot between us. After we got the second card we would figure out what to do with our shared hand, then play our own as we normally would. When we won he would grab the original bet and I the pay off then I would bet or he would and if we thougth that there was not enough on the spot would top it up and so would the other guy.

1.Surrenders

Tell him that when he wants to surrender you will buy the hand from him or tell him to go ahead. ;> Some people surrender when they should not. He has $10 out you pick up the $10 bet for $5.

2.Splits

If he does NOT want to split, tell him you would like to split and play and keep the winnings from YOUR hand and go 50/50 with the shared hand.

3.DD's

Same as above.

If your partner doesn't go for this, then just make sure he plays perfect basic, or if you are really lucky departs from bs per index #'s, and bet behind him at TC+2 or better.

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Canadian 21 (or "stook")
Posted by Mark Ness on 15-Feb-2003 07:04:04 (#3096)

Where can I find a good strategy for the Canadian form of 21, recently played at the Union Plaza Casino in Las Vegas? In this game the player completes his hand without knowing either of the dealer's cards. There is an opportunity to double or even triple your bet after the player sees one card and other rules much different from regular 21. Would Lance Humble from Canada know about this game? My survey sample of unskilled players in October, 2002 revealed the house winning about 75 hands to the players 50 hands, about a 20% advantage for the house, much too high. My sample studies at home for several hundred hands produced maybe a 6% profit for the player with a simple unrefined strategy without counting cards. From those studies, by hand, I got the impression that the Vegas modification of Canadian 21 might be able to be beaten. The Plaza game closed because of lack of business about January 1. Perhaps too few players had the required strategy to compete and have much of a chance to win or at least lose slowly. The Plaza and I have some printed rules for the game, but are somewhat confusing as written. I never saw this game in Winnipeg, Canada, when I played in their casino in the 1980's, only the conventional form of 21, which we could beat. Any help out there?

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in response to "Stook"
Posted by gidget on 13-Mar-2005 04:54:31 (#12439)

I happen to have played "Stook" in the Saskatoon Casino years ago. I am not an avid gambler so I haven't been there for a while but my grandfather taught me how to play before I knew how to play 21. In Stook two aces beat anything. 5 cards under 21 comes in second...... blackjack.........21........etc..... anyway there is such a thing as "Stook"

Canadian Girl Says So lol

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the casino is in a railroad car been there
Posted by eyesfor21 on 13-Mar-2005 21:38:40 (#12444)

if its the same one I went too.
Had a golly of a good time.

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Yes, Virginia, there is a Stook...
Posted by zengrifter on 14-Mar-2005 01:27:55 (#12446)

... and the common casino varities of it can be beaten, similar to BJ. zg

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Re: Canadian 21 (or "stook")
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 15-Feb-2003 07:39:28 (#3097)

Try using search here and at card counters cafe, bj21, bjmath, etc and I'm sure you will get the info you are looking for.

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Re: Canadian 21 (or "stook")
Posted by The Mayor on 15-Feb-2003 10:29:31 (#3098)

A man named "Moose" who hangs out at rge21.com is the worlds expert on the game. I suggest you correspond with him.

--Mayor

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Basic Statistics
Posted by NewbieCC on 15-Feb-2003 11:46:35 (#3099)

This last week I joined an on-line casino (Microgaming) that I had not played before. After 360 hands of BJ, I had met my wagering requirements and, I finished down 60 units. 60 units down is not unusual, I understand but it was strange because it was such a small number of hands and I was never up, just kept siding down, down, down. According to my calcs, this is -3.03 S.D. I came about this be using 1.1*sqrt(n) where n=number of hands played, an approximation used in Don Schlesinger's book. Is this correct? Am I also correct in assuming that this will happen approx. 1 out of 100 times?

Thanks,
NewbieCC

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Re: Basic Statistics
Posted by The Mayor on 15-Feb-2003 18:08:41 (#3102)

That is a lot to lose. But not that out of the ordinary.

I have played MG quite a bit. I suggest you do the circuit, and play lots of hands, you will not always take such a hit.

Double check your strategy, for MG it is not standard B.S., they offer a single deck game with a couple of weird rules (like splitting T's and getting an A is BJ). The complete strategy for MG is at www.thewizardofodds.com.

Good luck!

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Re: Basic Statistics
Posted by NewbieCC on 15-Feb-2003 18:14:11 (#3104)

Thanks, Mayor. I am pretty anal retentive when it comes to checking out the rules, and finding the right BS chart. I have been playing from that very strategy chart from The Wizard of Odds.

NewbieCC

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Re: Basic Statistics - correction
Posted by NewbieCC on 15-Feb-2003 18:09:52 (#3103)

Correction: It was 361 hands and I ended down 63 units.

NewbieCC

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1 in 100??? More like...
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 16-Feb-2003 03:51:59 (#3114)

1 in 1000!!! Assuming a break-even game, your SD was 3.01435406698. Brief perusal of Wong's PBJ, Table 83, "The Area in the Tail of the Normal Distribution", allows us to deduce that this particular scenario had about a .1% chance of occuring.

I think you said you were using the BS charts from the Wiz's site, correct? If so , they are no doubt accurate, is it possible that you made any strategy errors during the course of your play? If not, I would be a little leery, _anything__ over 3 SD's smells funny to me...

ANS

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Re: Basic Statistics - correction
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 17-Feb-2003 09:09:56 (#3130)

"Correction: It was 361 hands and I ended down 63 units."

I am often up over 63 units. If the game pays out 98.5% then I have your money! ;> Seriously, if this is a Micro site or a BOSS site, or any other reputable site out there, I doubt you go cheated. What was your deposit? Probably less than 1% of your real world bankroll. Try playing two hands of bj into a +5TC, double one, split the other, then doubling one of the split hands and watch the dealer blow you with 6 up 10 down and a 5 pulled.

When we win, it's skill. When we lose, we got cheated. ;>

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Re: Basic Statistics *LINK*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 15-Feb-2003 19:32:04 (#3106)

I would suggest that this should happen less than 1 out of 100 from personal experience. Maybe the Mayor is right in asuming you are using a more aggressive bs that you should be. Check this page at my site for proper info and flash cards you can print out and put beside your PC screen while you play.

http://webhome.idirect.com/~blakjack/rrmicro.htm

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When's the Big "Switch Over" *LINK*
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 15-Feb-2003 22:28:36 (#3108)

to new management here Mayor? Will it be seemless? Will we notice anything when it happens? Will you still be Mayor or return to City Councillor? ;>

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Re: When's the Big "Switch Over"
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 15-Feb-2003 22:30:48 (#3109)

Jezz! Got rid of the link finally!

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Re: When's the Big "Switch Over"
Posted by The NEW MANAGEMENT on 15-Feb-2003 23:35:40 (#3111)

The big switch is occuring as you speak. Basically the site will remain the same. Maintenance and security will be handled by The New Management. This will give the Mayor freedom to persue his academic goals. The Mayor has agreed to remain at the site as its mentor and basically its Guru. The future holds many new possibilities for the site. We will continue to expand the sites offerings and persue high quality intellectual as well as educational information for the advantage player. We intend to seek philosophical as well as intellectual input by the Mayor at every turn. This we believe will maintain the integrity of the site and its goals. The only caution we extend is that the rules of involvement will continue. Information that is obviously false or damaging with the intent in causing unjust harm will be negated(denied and nullified).

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Question for NM...
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 16-Feb-2003 03:16:46 (#3113)

Will the NEW MANAGEMENT team be maintaining anonymity, or will it express the Mayor's open-ness of identity?

Good luck,

ANS

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Good Question
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 16-Feb-2003 08:29:18 (#3116)

Annon does allow you to protect yourself. No doubt not knowing who the who is behind the curtain will keep people wondering who the Wizard of Oz is, and could create speculation. With well known people "disappearing" from cyberspace, some resurfacing on other boards (AS on LVA) some still lurking below the surface, and some no doubt reappearing as "new" with fake ID's on other boards, I think this could have a negative effect on the integrity of this board. Annon could prevent sibling rivalry. "Why is so-in-so moderating when I am a far superior moderator and blackjack player?" On that note, I have never offered to moderate this board, or help design anything here, and am not involved in any other form than as a poster.

Once again, regardless of who is behind that curtain protecting their identity, WE make this board what it is. There is a reason why half the country doesn't vote. They don't really give a sheet who is running things, and that will always be a majority.

ALWAYS,
Rob McGarvey

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Re: Question for NM...
Posted by BradRod on 16-Feb-2003 13:55:36 (#3119)

perhaps The NEW MANAGEMENT will post a profile

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Re: Question for NM...
Posted by Management on 16-Feb-2003 16:33:09 (#3120)

Yes good question! Since we are advantage players ourselves we wish to remain anonymous. Our main responsibility is keep the site up and running. The Mayor is the board and the board is the mayor. We feel to change the site would ruin the uniqueness of card counter.com. We are just the cogs in the machine.

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Thank you *NM*
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 17-Feb-2003 07:38:52 (#3126)

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e-mail for "The Mentor"
Posted by BradRod on 16-Feb-2003 06:55:53 (#3115)

I am trying to send e-mail to the Mayor at - advantageplayer@hotmail.com. Is this no longer a good mailbox ? What e-mail address can I use ?

thanx

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Re: e-mail for "The Mentor"
Posted by The Mayor on 16-Feb-2003 09:13:31 (#3117)

You can mail me directly at my university email,

teliot@cs.ucsb.edu

You are right, I closed that account.

--Mayor

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Re: When's the Big "Switch Over"
Posted by Soft17 on 17-Feb-2003 11:59:06 (#3134)

Any plans to get a bigger tap and a faster machine?

Soft17.

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Not determined yet
Posted by The Mayor on 17-Feb-2003 13:25:02 (#3138)

I tried to see if I could find a way to have my current service provider allow the new management to take over (while mainaining my account) and they balked. Thus NM needs to track down a new ISP, get the files x-ferred and the scripts re-written, and this may take just a bit of time.

--Mayor

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Are you giving up Blackjack?
Posted by SammyBoy on 17-Feb-2003 15:41:30 (#3141)

Will you still have time to play?

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I will continue to play
Posted by The Mayor on 17-Feb-2003 21:14:07 (#3147)

Of course! How much is unknown, but I can't see any reason to stop accepting the casino's eager willingness to put $$$ in my pocket.

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Calculating variance w/spread
Posted by NewbieCC on 16-Feb-2003 11:08:03 (#3118)

I was wondering how to calculate variance when using a bet spread. My gut feeling is that it is NOT just the variance of the average of the bets, but that the higher bets contribute more to the variance then the smaller bets. How do I go about calculating this? Thanks in advance.

NewbieCC

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Amazing question
Posted by The Mayor on 16-Feb-2003 18:30:33 (#3122)

I have to tell you, this is one of the best questions I ever remember seeing on this site.

What contributes to an increase in variance? It is not spread, it is an improper bet ramp!

Optimal ramps, betting the proper amount at the proper count, and not under or over-betting. If you bet too much at a low count, that increases variance. If you bet too little at a high count, that increases variance! IN fact, any improper bet size (relative to a kelley system) increases variance.

Assuming your cannot control the game you are playing, or the counting system you are using, the only other control you have is your bet size. That is a critical variable in the equation, and your ramp, betting the right amount at the count, is the only other variable you have control over!

Again, great question.

--Mayor

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Good answer also. *NM*
Posted by Alexander Mundy on 16-Feb-2003 18:53:22 (#3123)

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I think you mean RISK and not variance *NM*
Posted by T-Hopper on 17-Feb-2003 13:40:21 (#3139)

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Correct, of course 8-)
Posted by The Mayor on 17-Feb-2003 14:04:20 (#3140)

Risk is computed by looking at Variance, EV, and BR. Risk combines these, and each can be considered separately, but you are certainly correct in your statement as well.

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funny you should ask...
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 17-Feb-2003 07:59:13 (#3127)

I have been doing some research on this subject recently, and have found a few useful equations. Mason Malmuth has some excellent writings and equations useful in calculating variance and standard deviation, and some old school rec.gamblers even attempted to modify those methods, and I think in at least one case, someone succeeded. Not that Mason's equation wasn't correct in the first place (though there was much debate on this at the time), it was, it was just for larger samples (around 30 or more). I believe the modified version was better suited for smaller samples, but I'm just getting into it so I can't really say yet.

Of course all of the Mayor's comments were on point, error in any way, shape, or form will almost always contribute to increased variance.

ANS

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Re: Like all good questions . .
Posted by NewbieCC on 17-Feb-2003 10:29:27 (#3132)

. . it seems to raise more questions than answers! (grin) Thanks for the info. I guess it is back to the books.

NewbieCC

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Re: Calculating variance w/spread
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 17-Feb-2003 20:42:25 (#3144)

I think that you are doing well enough to understand this concept, rather than have the exact computations for it. Think of a high wind, and I mean above the ground. At ground zero it is calm. 100 feet up it's a breeze, 200 it's enough to get your coat moving, etc. Because you need a wild spread in multi deck, you have to fly high and take chances. By having a good "wing spread" of two or three hands, you can stabilize yourself. Single deck is like going in under the radar. Doing it online is like attacking the biggest vault in the world with tunnel warfare. ;>

Why would you like to know the numbers?

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How to calculate it...
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 17-Feb-2003 23:40:23 (#3149)

The thoughts I brought up in my prior post pertain to approximation methods that help to simplify the estimation of standard deviation and variance over a period of time. If one has the time and necessity to do so, it can be calculated rather accurately.

A few weeks ago someone asked about figuring standard deviation without a simulation. I responded with the notion of executing a method utilizing the knowledge of frequency of advantage, or more ideally, true count, to determine the overall standard deviation for any spread. There's no reason this wouldn't work (assuming I was correct;-) for the variance, as variance itself is simply the square of the standard deviation.

Further research on this matter has uncovered that this methodology has been utilized by Michael Hall, as well as George C., so I'm pretty confident I was on the right track.

The following is an excerpt from Michael Hall's 1991 RoR article.

--------------------------------------------------

III. George C. on the Ruin Formula

From "The Ruin Formula", by George C., Blackjack Forum, September 1988...

George shows how to compute variance, like so:

6 Decks Strip Rules w/DDAS, 75% Penetration

Advantage__Hands/Hour_______Bet Squared $__Product $
------------- --------------- ------------------ ---------------
__-3.4%_______1.0_______________10000______10000
__-2.9%_______2.0_______________10000______20000
__-2.4%_______3.0_______________10000______30000
__-1.9%_______4.0_______________10000______40000
__-1.4%_______8.0_______________10000______80000
__-0.9%______13.0_______________10000_____130000
__-0.4%______35.5_______________10000_____355000
___0.1%______13.0_______________40000_____520000
___0.6%_______8.0______________250000____2000000
___1.1%_______4.0______________562500____2250000
___1.6%_______3.0_____________2250000____6750000
___2.1%_______2.0_____________2250000____4500000
___2.6%_______2.0_____________2250000____4500000
___3.1%_______1.0_____________2250000____2250000
___3.6%_______0.5_____________2250000____1125000

Sum of Products = 24560000
Sq Root of Products = 4956
Times 1.1 = 5451 = Hourly standard deviation in $

[snip]

This is consistent with what I posted the other day about
computing variance from frequency distributions, so it
looks like I was probably right. -MH

-------------------------------------------

It's clear to see that we can derive other figures from the given info, such as advantage and win rate, and much more. The main factor is accuracy of the input, which will consequently result in corresponding accuracy in calculations.

ANS

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Re: Calculating variance w/spread
Posted by Cyrano on 18-Feb-2003 22:59:06 (#3161)

I've been wrestling with something and I would like to hear some opinions on this: what if we take a modified version of the Sharpe Ratio and apply it to various bet ramps, as opposed to "optimal bet ramps". Is it possible to come up with a "clearer picture" of what the new risk-adjusted returns would be? Is this comparing apples to oranges?

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A modified Sharp Ratio...
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 19-Feb-2003 02:44:44 (#3162)

...is what you should be using, wether it's SCORE, or my preference, ROI. Also, the reason optimal spreads are usually used in comparisons, as far as I know, is so the effect of rounding doesn't alter results.

ANS

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wonging out relative to penetration
Posted by BradRod on 16-Feb-2003 21:59:38 (#3124)

I was playing at a game of 6D with penetration of about 5-1/4 decks over the weekend. Given the greater likelihood of reaching the pivot point ( + 2 TC ) at some point during the shoe of that depth I reasoned that I should stay in the shoe longer with a low count than I would if the penetration was only 4-1/2 decks. This casino also had low limits so it did not cost so much to stay in as long as 3 decks. Conversely if I find myself at a table with a shallow penetration I will leave earlier when the count is low. Does this make mathematical sense ?

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Re: wonging out relative to penetration
Posted by Learning to count on 17-Feb-2003 06:29:40 (#3125)

I was playing at a game of 6D with penetration of about 5-1/4 decks over the weekend. Given the greater likelihood of reaching the pivot point ( + 2 TC ) at some point during the shoe of that depth I reasoned that I should stay in the shoe longer with a low count than I would if the penetration was only 4-1/2 decks. This casino also had low limits so it did not cost so much to stay in as long as 3 decks. Conversely if I find myself at a table with a shallow penetration I will leave earlier when the count is low. Does this make mathematical sense ?

Good, no, great penetration. From experience and from professional advice I wong out at a -3 tc if occuring within the first two decks dealt out. Then after that if a -1 tc occurs at any time in the true count. This has been my strategy so far.

Now if you are staying in and playing through the negative counts you have to spread 1-30/40 depending on the ole bankroll. To play all red you need a minimum BR of 5k. A BR of 10k would be better. You have to play a lot of nuetral counts and have to ride out negative swings. WHen you play all you have to get time in and that means surviving exposure if you have a great run.

My last trip I had a great run when I was wonging tables. I discovered that the casinos with several open tables was the best place to wong. Variety is the spice of life. If the limits are low then flat bet the max if it is at your max bet limit for your bank roll. I would enter a +3 tc and bet max at a +5 and spread to two hands at a +6 tc. I have seen these low bet limits $10-$200 0r $5-$50 at good games so wonging in with max bets can be deadly here.

If you play all at low limits you can risk never being able to overcome the VIG with a low spread. Also spread to two hands can help with these low limits. I have had to spread to three hands on those $50 max table to get to a max bet. Watch out when playing multiple hands like this if there are too many players at the table. The best I have found is to play at at table with two others. Better to play heads up if can get it. Just remember you need a good BR to do this at six deckers.

The game sounds good though with a 3/4 deck cut off. Can I come and play Black jack there!

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one correction...
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 17-Feb-2003 09:11:17 (#3131)

LTC said:

"I would enter a +3 tc..."

There is no benefit in waiting until +3 to enter, in fact it will decrease ROI (SCORE) and increase N0 (hands to double) in most, if not all cases. In any case, a TC of +3 or higher would only occur approximately 11% of the time, even with the good pen, so you wouldn't be playing very many hands/hr at all.

ANS

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Re: one correction...
Posted by Learning to count on 17-Feb-2003 16:13:36 (#3142)

My thinking on this is that I want to enter at +3 with its coresponding bet. For me it would be 3 units green or $75.

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You have a common...
Posted by Adam N. Subtractum on 17-Feb-2003 08:55:38 (#3128)

misconception in your thinking. The main factors in determining optimal departure point IMO:

-number of available tables
-variance in penetration & speed amongst those tables
-heat generated from table hopping

After these factors are considered, here are a few points to ponder on...

-the variance of the frequency of _all_ true counts, relative to penetration
-the True Count Theorem
-the variance of the true count
-the value of time

Some of these considerations should be obvious, but others may not be immediately intuitive. If you don't feel like figuring it out for yourself, Don's BJA is the authorative work on the subject to date, from what I understand.

ANS

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Re: wonging out relative to penetration
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 17-Feb-2003 08:58:00 (#3129)

If your min bet is $5 I would continue to play to make sure I had a seat when we are coming to the cut card. You are paying a very small fee for reserving your seat, and possibly get to track some Aces and Faces into a segment you can pound into. People that don't track and do not get that kind of penetration should by all means scoot at -2TC or only wong in at +2TC.

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Re: wonging out relative to penetration
Posted by The Mayor on 17-Feb-2003 11:49:09 (#3133)

If you are indeed playing a game that is 5.25 out of 6, then Wonging is entirely the wrong way to play. That is a great game, plant yourself at a table, and play 2 hands, 1-10 spread. You will do just fine, but the two hands is necessary -- it increases your win in plus situations, and eats cards in negative situations.

On the other hand, if you must Wong, you don't stay in longer because of the great penetration. That simply makes no difference in "Wonging" theory (because of the True Count Theorem -- which rougly says that the TC tends to stay the same). Leave when the count says to leave, or because of the other factors (heat, crowd, available tables, etc.). The optimal departure points are listed in Schlesinger's BJAttack.

--Mayor

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Re: wonging out relative to penetration
Posted by Soft17 on 17-Feb-2003 12:22:19 (#3135)

While the mayor absolutely correctly pointed out that this indeed is great game that should be exploited to the max, I would like to recommend that you not play two hands when TC < +2 if you have other players at the table. Playing two hands when TC < +2 will require you to wager substantially higher in negative or even expectation (especially so if your min bet matches the table min). Let the ploppies help you eat the bad cards. Spread to two hands only when the TC hits +2. This way you will eat more good cards relative to the others.

Many times, this tactic lends additional benefit if you are lucky enough to have ploppy that hates "screwing up the order of the cards" playing with you. This ploppy will play two hands when you are playing one and will play one hand when you spread to two! Need I say more?

Good luck...
Soft17.

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Re: wonging out relative to penetration
Posted by The Mayor on 17-Feb-2003 13:23:15 (#3137)

I think jumping back and forth between 1 and 2 hands will hurt your longevity with the ploppies a the table. Besides, it turns out that playing 2 or even 3 hands all the time yields a significantly higher SCORE than playing 1 hand consistently, so it is good to get in the habit of always playing multiple hands in shoe games.

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Re: wonging out relative to penetration
Posted by CanKen on 19-Feb-2003 13:11:53 (#3172)

In the game I am forced to play most of the, time your bet on each of two hands has to be at least double the table minimum. Wouldn't this make a difference in your answer?
My practice has been to spread to two spots once the count has got to the point where I would bet double the minimum on one spot anyway, and from there on bet 150% of what I would bet on one spot, spread over two spots. What do you think?

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Re: wonging out relative to penetration
Posted by CanKen on 22-Feb-2003 12:49:53 (#3205)

Not sure what happened to my previous post on this, so I'll ask again:
Where I play, if you want to bet two or more spots you have to bet double the table minimum on each. How would this affect the above advice?

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Re: wonging out relative to penetration
Posted by BradRod on 26-Feb-2003 21:35:49 (#3259)

I'm not sure about the answer to your question. It seems to me that the reason for playing the 2 spots is to be sure you have them to play when the shoe gets good at or before the shuffle card comes out. If you can get a decent spread out when that happens then the double bet will likely have been worth it. If you are not prepared to get a big enough spread down then maybe it is a little risky to play double bets on 2 spots.

The reason you may not have gotten response from others is because of the age of the string.

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Re: wonging out relative to penetration
Posted by Felix Rue-de-Guerre on 24-Feb-2003 22:21:20 (#3231)

Isn't it nice to have these kinds of problems? He.. He!
-Felix

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68 Members w Profiles
Posted by Rob McGarvey on 17-Feb-2003 13:06:23 (#3136)

Our close knit community has grown nicely. If you have not created a profile, feel free to do so, tho I think it is not a requirement to post or to review the messages.

Correct me if I am wrong.

Welcome y'all!

Robby Mac

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Sacrifice Bets
Posted by jacknero on 17-Feb-2003 19:23:42 (#3143)

Do somebody have a more detail study for Sacrifice Bets?
My simple study shows some advantadge when splitting 8's and just continue with one hand agains dealer 9, T and A.
There are same advantages on other cases as well.Comments...

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Re: Sacrifice Bets
Posted by BradRod on 17-Feb-2003 20:49:07 (#3145)

<<<splitting 8's and just continue with one hand agains dealer 9, T and A>>>

Are you suggesting to not hit the first 8 ?

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Re: Sacrifice Bets
Posted by jacknero on 18-Feb-2003 13:41:59 (#3153)

You play with a seated player(SP) playing with 1 unit bet. You backline with a 100 unit bet. You get 8,8 against dealer 9. SP splits but you don't follow.
So there are 2 hands on the table 8 with 1+100 units and another 8 with just 1 unit bet. The point is with this play you lose less. Or du you want to bet your 100 unit on 8 if the dealer have a 9? I don't think so.
Do I have missunderstood something? Comments..

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Re: Sacrifice Bets
Posted by BradRod on 18-Feb-2003 14:38:28 (#3155)

<<<<......... SP splits but you don't follow.
So there are 2 hands on the table 8 with 1+100 units and another 8 with just 1 unit bet. The point is with this play you lose less. Or du you want to bet your 100 unit on 8 if the dealer have a 9? I don't think so.
Do I have missunderstood something? Comments.. >>>&g